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  1. #1
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    Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    When a lake reaches equal water temp at all depths such as Patoka Lake did on Nov 7th the lake can turn over. This replenishes the dissolved oxygen at the bottom of the lake and thoughout the lake's vertical profile.

    Lake turnover is casues by colder average air temps with the coming of fall and winter causing the surface waters to cool down until they equal the same temp are the bottom layers of the lake. Now this occurs on lakes that stratify during the summer months and that don't have lots of current. Rivers won't stratify so this does not really apply to moving bodies of water.

    Normally it gets colder and colder and the water continues to drop in temp. As the surface water's get colder this cold water gets denser and falls down to the bottom of the lake. Now at 4 deg C or 39.2 deg F the water is at it's densest. At 3 Deg C the water gets ligher and at zero deg C or 32 deg F the water will start forming ice and the ice will float up. If not for this strange fact the lake would start freezing on the bottom first and the fish would be in trouble.

    But this year we have a funny thing happening. We had turn over and then we had a warming spell. Water in the lake had reached about 50 deg F as turnover occured. But a week or so later the air temps increased and the surface waters Warmed back up to 55 deg F. So where did the fish go?

    Think about this and pretent that it's now March and the water is warming up from winter's long cold spell. Now where do you fish?

    Northern Shorelines that are protected from the cold north winds and that get the most sunlight will be the ticket during this short warm spell. Most likely the winds will be out of the South for a few days bring the warm southern air into your area.

    So do the fish come back into the surface water? I think so. I caught over 40 crappie once when this weather pattern occured. I found all the fish right at the surface. Even the bigger crappie were up near the surface. They were all caught within the first 10ft of the surface. This was an overcast type day also so the sun was not that bright. It was in late October so the sun was lower in the sky at this time of the year. Winds were light at 5 to 10 mph creating a light ripple on the water's surface. Normally I catch fish in the deeper water of this spot along the bottom of the drop off. But this day with the warm surface water and low light condition the fish were all near the surface. Maybe they were soaking up the warmer water temps knowing that in a few months they will be forced to find the warmest water at the very bottom of the lake. Remember when there is ice on the lake and it's very cold the warmer water (4 deg c)is the heaviest water and it's at the bottom of the lake. But you get a warm spell and the ice melts the fish may be found shallow again as the surface waters warm up over 5 deg C. Even on a bright sunny day the water right under the ice may be warming due to the sunlight. Remember warm water rises once it gets warmer than 4 deg C.




    Regards,

    Moose1am

  2. #2
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    Moose,

    Trust you to have good insight into the thorny problems Patoka, and Hoosier lakes in general, have presented this year. In talking to Tim Gibson last week he added his voice to this year as generally the toughest fishing season he can remember at his home lake. Makes me feel that I am not quite as dense and out of practice as I thought I was. Tim's on his way today to Okeechobee to guide for the winter. He declined my offer to share gas and ride in the trunk! As you might remember I'm the guy who's trying to keep ahead of the Big C by fishing every chance I can find. That means that for the next two months every chance I can get, when the temps bounce up to the fifties I'll be towing somewhere to chase crappies or anything thawed out enough to bite. I think Glenn Flint will be next. I need to fish a small lake more to better learn how to use my boat and sonar to find and stay on the creek channels. It all looks so easy on the maps but when I hit something like Potoka I just can't seem to find what I'm looking for. As you once said, it all looks good. Do you know of a good, instructive book or DVD on using and interpreting sonar, and getting to offshore spots. Often I know I'm within a hundred yards or so, but have trouble from there.

    BTW, I think it was you who said you were staying away from Patoka because of the drive/cost of fuel.? This applies to you or any of the guys on the board. I live in Indy and can go just about anytime. I will share expenses in return for a solid fishing companion. I am 60 yo, straight as my 5 kids will attest (don't care if you are or aren't), have a well polished sense of humor, and want to learn more than I know now. Email me at jon@foxcrafter.com. I pull a 2005 Tracker Tournament 175 with a new Dodge Magnum RT Hemi. I'll go with you or vice versa. My age and boat account for my handle - Tracker60 although I prefer Tracker Jon. Best wishes. Thanks in advance for any help on my questions, and thanks for the advice on the temp. inversion/thermocline insight!

    Tracker Jon

  3. #3
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    I fished close to home this year. That being Blue Grass Fish and Wildlife Area in Warrick County, IN. Now that gas is back down to below $2/gal it's going to snow. I am recovering from the flue this week. Don't get this flue if you are smart. This one is a doozy. Haven't been this sick in years. Can't seem to shake this bug.

    Man if Tim gibson had trouble on Patoka this year then that says a lot.

    One day I may be able to zero in on some patoka lake spots. I have a lot of work to do on my computer first. I am developing some maps of Patoka Lake for the computer. I got tired of working on them due to a faulty scanner. I am in the process of reducing the screen resolution on my map scans to better work with them. I need to make the file sizes much smaller. PSP9 and Adobe Elements 2 don't like big file sizes. I scanned these maps that I got from a friend at 600 dpi resolution and am in the process of reducing them to 150dpi. Then I need to begin to splice them together. Once I get that done I am going to try to convert some of the points on each map page from Indiana Plane Coordinate Map Coordinates into UTM or Longiture and Latitude coordinates. Once that is done I may be able to change them to a TIFF file format and calibate and use them with another program called Ozi Explorer.

    With all this above done I may be able to pull up a map on my computer and put the mouse pointer on a good looking spot on the map screen and get the map coordiantes that I can put into my Garmin GPS unit. I plan on someday testing these map coordinates on the lake to see if they are accurate enough to let me find good fishing spots.

    It's easy to find spots on a paper map but getting to that exact spot on the lake is tough. If you are off 30ft you won't find the right spot and may not catch fish.

    Right now there are no really good maps that are accurate. The fishing hot spot maps of Patoka Lake are not very accurate. All the fishing spots are miss marked and called Hazards and even if you knew that they were fishing spots they are not accuratey marked even on the digital maps.

    I only know of two spots on Patoka Lake that I have seen big crappie come out of. One spot I found by accident by watching a good fishermen fish the spot and the other spot was shown to me by another guy that fishs patoka all the time. He is the guy that gave me the paper maps to scan.

    Patoka is a hard lake to figure out at times. There is just so much potential wood cover and so many ditches and creek channels to fish.

    My biggest crappie that I have caught at Patoka was a nice 1.5lb white crappie. I caught that fish in April 2003. All the other times that I fished Patoka lake I was catching those small 8" long Black Crappie.

    My buddy knows some other spots on the lake but he has not shown those to me.

    Maybe next year the gas prices won't jump up so high and I will be able to get up to Patoka a few times. Last year at this time it was still pretty warm and we fished a few times in Nov and did pretty good on crappie. They were huge but they were fat and good eating fish. 9" to 11" fish most were.





    Regards,

    Moose1am

  4. #4
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    This past year the water was a good 10 degrees warmer than last year. The lake never made it to summer pool and add very clear water in along with bright sunshine about every weekend and you can bet the fish relocated. Plus some of the spots gibson fishes are beat to death by others watching where he fishes.

    Moose if you'll remember me showing you where I put one brushpile out a year ago down towards the dam it finally paided off. I left it alone all year until recently. Two sundays ago I caught 6 around 12" off of it before the little ones took over.

    I found two others brushpiles this year. One was up in Little Patoka and the other one was in a bay off of the main lake. The last one I got a limit 5 times in a row off of it. Never seen another boat near it all year. There is no visiable cover of anykind to see other than grass near by for the bank beaters bass fishing. Actually there's two more brushpiles in this same area. I found them after searching around and they produced very well all year. 30'to 35' of water and the main channel aren't very far away. This bay has a bunch of stumps all over the bottom in 15' to 30' of water. Most of my big ones usually come off of this type of cover cause no one is fishing like this. That's where the 1oz. sinkers come in handy. I usually run the 2 hook setup in more open water and a single hook in the thicker cover.

    My fishing year wasn't too bad considering how much time I spent on the new toon. Heck this is a great time of year to fish. They haven't quit biting cause of the cooler weather. The wind blowing like a sob is my biggest problem where I like to fish. I may go sunday if the weather isn't too bad. Saturday I'm taking the toon and putting it in storage under a roof after getting it winterized.

    I've told my wife I'm getting either a new depthfinder for the console or trolling motor this spring. I want a Lowrance 332 color unit with GPS for the console and a 102X color unit for the trolling motor. I'd like both units to use the same GPS and from what I've been told it can be done. How it's done I don't have any idea. I may get them both at the same time next spring if she ain't carefull. She's well aware that the new BPS is open. You need to come up and see that place before long. You ain't but about two hours away at most. I'll even furnish the food and beer.

    This has to be the longest post I ever made.


    Larry

  5. #5
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    Moose, I hear you about trying to find a way to get exact coordinates. I tried taking the Hot Spots map and using a metric scale ruler. I established a long. and lat. value for each tick on the scale. Then I measured first the long. position of the spot as close as I could get, for ex. say I got 23 ticks from the grid line to the right of the spot. I then multiplied the 23 times the value of each long. tick - say 23 x 11.63. That gave me a number to add to the longitude of the grid line to the right. Same with latitude. I then created a waypoint in the GPS. (I have the East chip from the NAVAID series). I can say that following that track to the point it seemed to get me fairly close to where the map said it should be. But once again, something about horseshoes. It's frustrating for me personally as I was a trained cartographer in the Air Force back in the late sixties, and I can't seem to get there! The process you are following may well pay off. In the meantime I will work with what I have. By zooming in on the GPS lake map and moving the cursor to the center of a bend in the channel, for example, then following the track to that point should get me pretty close to where I can idle in circles and get on the general area. Perhaps the GPS technology will improve to where you can get within 10 feet someday. Until then, since we are both pursuing the same thing, I will keep posting any progress. Right now, if I can just find a brush field surrounding a horseshoe bend in the channel I would be ecstatic! Good luck. Let's pray for a warm snap in December. I'd be happy to leave the rods in the box and just spend a day getting better with the electronic tools on board.

    Tracker Jon

  6. #6
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    Larry:
    I am going to take you up on your offer when I get over this darn flue bug. I may not even go to the parents house for thanksgiving as I don't want to give them this bug. I have been stuck in this house for a week now. I went out yesterday for 20 minutes to get some hot and sour soup at the local Chinese resturant and boy was it good. But I broke out in a sweat just getting dressed.

    I wish I had more money because if I did have more expendable cash I would get me one of them new Humminbird Wide View Sidescanning Sonar units for $1700.00. I could save some money buy sending in an old humminbird unit using the humminbird exchange program. I have all the paperwork already. Just need about 1500 extra bucks. LOL

    I do vaguely remember your spot. Man it's been a while since we took that boat ride. You said 30ft of water? Now I read about a few spots that are in 30ft of water at summer pool 536ft. I'll bet that I am thinking of the same spots. These spots are said to hold some huge slabs. They are on the main lake.

    Yea 2 hours drive I can handle. That is a lot easier than driving 8 hours in one day. LOL That Cinncinati Trip would have been a total of 2 hours to your place then another 2 to 4 hours to Cinci and then all that back again. I can handle a 2 hour trip times two easier. That would give us more time to look around.

    I want to wait until the Aquarium is up and running so I hope they get that fixed real fast. If not then I can see it on the second trip.

    Looking forward to visiting that store and seeing you again.

    Regards,

    Moose1am

  7. #7
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    Tracker60:
    You may be the guy I am looking for. If you made maps for the US Air Force then you should know your stuff. I was just thinking about trying to get in touch with some surveyors or engineers to see if they were aware of any gps units that display Indiana Plane Coordinates. This map system is used by the State of Indiana as it adhears to Political Boundaries unlike the UTM map system. And the grid is measured in Ft not Yards or Meters so it's shows much greater RESOLUTION. I can use a program called Corpscom (SP?) that allows me to input a map coordinate in the IPCS and calculate the same map coordiantes in the UTM map system. My GPS Garmin eTrex Vista has the capability to display UTM map coordinates or the regular Long and latitude systems and with it's WAAS turned on sometimes it's accurate to within plus or minu 10ft. That is close enough.

    One could get close to the U bend in the old river and drop marker buoys to find the exact shape of the bend. The old river channel is not very wide. Those areas with sharp bends are ideal spots to fish especially if they have a ditch that flows from them back into a bay. Some areas I have fished have several ditches that lead out of the bay to the old river bed where it makes a sharp U turn.

    I have been trained to read UTM maps but still the regular 7.5 min USGS Quadrangle Maps are not as acccurate as these Indiana Plane Coordinate system maps. I can use a calibrated ruler and figure the map coordinates from the paper maps but my copies are not very good. The contour lines on my paper copys are faint. The original copies were blue print paper and they were copies of the original maps that were printed onto mylar plastic sheets. So I have a copy of a copy. My digital copies of the blueprint paper maps are much better and show much more detail. Also I like the idea of using OziExplorer to calibate the digital maps. I am hoping that I can get much better accuracy. Pat Haus of Kentucy Hydrographix asked me to tell how how well this works when I finally test it out on the lake. It may not work like I intend it to. I was told that paper maps can shrink and expand with changing moisture levels and that can throw off the accuracy a lot. As you should know trying to measure in millimeter on a paper USGS map is limited. And the accuracy of the map itself can throw things off. Maybe that is why I am only half heartly working on my digial maps. Maybe deep down inside me I know it won't work as accurately as I wish. Still I continue at a very slow pace to work on this project.

    The best thing to do is put your own brush piles out and mark them with a GPS or triangulate points on the shoreline to help find the spot again. This does work and I have been using this method on the lake I fish close to home. It's much easier to do also. LOL My last two trips in Oct produced 12 fish each time in just under a couple of hours. Didn't leave the house until around 3 pm and it got dark at 4:30pm. My crappie condos are starting to produce fish in the fall of the year. I just had to put out more than two condos in one area to finally get the fish to start to use them. A week before this I hit them good and caught a limit in under two hours on another site on the lake I fish. These are not huge slabs but they still are good to eat.

    I have a mylar scale that allows me to read UTM maps from the blue tick marks. I can add or subtract distances from any spot on a usgs map and determine the map coordinates on a paper map. But it's a lot faster to do this with the computer and a calibrated map. Check out the OziExplorer Program. This guy from Austria developed this program. He has a neutred version that is shareware. But the retail program allows you to perform a 12 point map calibration and that should give the accuracy that I want. I think that the shareware version uses bitmap images and the retail version allows TIFF files to be use. I can change my digital maps from Paint Shop Pro 9 file formate to Tiff format once I am finished reducing and splicing them back into one big page. You see the original patoka lake maps were too big for my scanner. Each map page measures 19.5" x 13.5" and there were 20 something pages that made up the Patoka Lake map. I had to scan each 19.5"x13.5" map on an 8 by 10 scanner so I had to divide each page into quarters. I scanned the topright, topleft, bottom right and then the bottom left side of each page. That gave me four files. But I performed each scan at 600dpi. Now if I try to splice each quarter section together to map one map page the file size is over 400 MB. That file size is just too large for Paint Shop Pro 9 to handle. So I found that I could save a copy of the PSP9 files as Tiff files. Then I could use Adobe Elements 2.0 to splice a 100mb quarter section with another 100mb quater section to reproduce the top half of a original map. I did the same thing with the two bottom sections using Adobe. I was then able to splice the top half with the bottom half. But after that the file size was too big even for Adobe to work with. I tried using the Jusas program Photo Album to splice the PSP9 files together but it failed to work. Bummer.

    It would have made my life so much easier if this would have worked.

    I almost let Evansville Blue Print Company scan these paper maps for me. They only wanted $150 bucks to perform that job. I should have let them do that for me. But that is hindsight. I figured I could do it myself using a scanner that my neighbor gave to me. Only problem was the scanner was old and the drivers didn't work well with my computer. I got so frustrated trying to scan these images that it took me almost a year to finish the job. I had to at times reinstall the scanners drivers between each scan. Now that was a bitch. I would get so upset that I would stop scanning for days at a time and just didn't feel like fighting with these maps anymore. But then after a week went by I would get up the desire to tackle the job again. Now I have a newer HP scanjet legal sized scanner so hopefully if I ever have to do a job like this again It will go easier. I am not sure if the scanner was the problem or if my Paint Shop Pro 8 and Paint Shop Pro program was the problem. Either way it was a bitch to get the scans done.

    Regards,

    Moose1am

  8. #8
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    Moose,
    I can identify with the frustration. Another thing that makes plotting off of paper maps and charts is the fact that they stretch after a little use making the possible error on the final coordinants even greater. Since it is too cold to fish I will spend time looking into anything I can find to solve the problem. Maybe between where you've been and where I go we can come up with something. Thanks for the lead on the Aussie software; I will take a look. Later.

    Jon

  9. #9
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    Hey Moose/Jon,

    While all this map talk stuff is fun and is a great way to kill some time through the winter, MHO is that you guys are spending a whole lot of effort for not much reward. Maps are nice and they have their place, but so many of the good spots on a lake are not on a map. All the "soft stuff", things like weedlines, stumpbeds, small drainage ditches, hard bottomed areas, riprap versus clay versus silt bottoms, silted in channels no longer like a map shows, shellbeds, fallen trees...I could go on and on.

    Maps are great for knowing where the bluffs are, where the river channels run, maybe a house foundation or roadbed here and there and how to run a lake and about where you are; And the highly detailed maps starting to come out (like Hydrographix) are cool, but heck guys, just get out on the water and keep the unit turned on and you'll find way more places than you'll ever find on some map.

    Relating places on a map to a spot on the lake is not too difficult once you have a little practice. You can read the magazines and watch the videos but it is no substitute for being on the water. Jon, if the weather ever breaks before the lakes freeze (that's looking like a big if - LOL) I'd be glad to take you out on one of these central IN lakes and spend the day showing you how to use electronics. We'll be sure to stop and catch some fish for dinner along the way, too.

    If you are looking to run out to Flint at some point you'll need to check the water level out there. The lake had been dropped 8 feet and there was no way you were launching as little as 2 weeks ago. All this rain may have changed things for the better, but I'd check for sure before driving all the way out there with the boat in tow.

    If you have a boat, a halfway decent graph and a cheap handheld GPS you will have more spots located in a short amount of time then you'll ever have by reading a map. It's really not that difficult and I usually make it a point to add a few new places everytime I'm out on the water.

    If the weather breaks and I can get away I'll drop you an e-mail Jon and see if the schedules align.

    -Team9



  10. #10
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    I agree with Team9 in that being on the water is the best way to learn the lake. Can't argue with that statement.

    I use my maps to explore the lake before I go. I use them to give me a plan on where to fish.

    I can't go fishing that often so when I do go to Patoka I want to be organized and have an idea where I am going to fish.

    I once tried finding a bend in the old river bed upstream from the Hwy 145 bridge. Actually it was upstream from the Osborn Ramp. I found that my map on my gps Garmin Mapsorce FHS Patoka Lake Map showed me where the old river channel was located but it was a flooded forest in that area. Trying to work though all those trees made life difficult. This bottom land forest area was thick with trees before the lake was filled. Now it's stick thick with a lot of dead trees (telephone poles) I fished the drops in this spot but could not find any fish.

    Over the last two years I have been checking the maps and then fishing certain spots that look good on the map to see if there are fish there. I used the new maps to find old ditches that dont' show up on the FHS maps of Patoka. I verified that these ditches shown on the new maps were actually still there. I caught fish off them. And I could easily find the old brush that grew up along the sides of the ditches. Guess the farmers can't plow that area so they didn't bother to cut the brush in the ditches before the lake was flooded. That brush is still there today. Maybe other people have put brush in along the ditches or maybe it's just lasted over the years.

    I just wish that I lived as close to Patoka as I do to BlueGrass. Now then I could really spend a lot more time learning that lake. It's a 150 mile round trip for me so I don't get to go that often.

    Now Larry on the other hand has the advantage. He has had these maps for over 20 years and he has fished Patoka a lot ever since it opened up. He now has a cabin in the area so he can spend the weekends up there fishing if he does not have to work overtime.

    I spent some time online today and downloaded OziExplorer and use the Trial Version for a few minutes. It does not have a built in version of the Indiana Plane Coordinate System Grid System. It does however have a user Grid system. But that is a real pain in the butt.

    I wish that my maps had some utm markings on them so that I could calibate them in OziExplorer. But I am afraid they don't. I would have to find know landmarks on these maps and figure out the UTM coordinates of those landmarks before calibrating these maps. Once calibrated I think they would be very useful for the partime fisherman.

    Regards,

    Moose1am

  11. #11
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    Team9,

    Your point about finding what's out there by looking and noting is well taken. In fact I've found good stuff just that way. I think the best thing I could do is when I go to Patoka for the day is spend the first 3 or 4 hours just cruising and looking and learning about my sonar/gps unit. Marking the promising structure/cover I find, and then trying to get back on it afterward to fish it. My current search for knowledge is based on trying to find something that will get me closer to some of the good stuff that is on the maps. Last time out I looked and looked for a fish attractor - had to be close but I could never find it. But while searching I did find an unexpected hump of about 12 feet in 25 feet of water. It didn't fit the terrain at all. Maybe it is an old pile of dirt pushed up by a dozer. ? I set the waypoint right on top. I hope I can get back to it again. As for the fishing, I sincerely appreciate the offer you've made and would thoroughly enjoy it. Most winters the larger lakes don't freeze and we usually get 2-3 day spells of fifty degree temps at least once or twice. I might sacrifice my wife's dog as an offering to the weather gods! Best, and keep in touch. Thanks again.

    Jon

  12. #12
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    RE: Warming Spells following the lake turnover

    I fished Patoka when it first opened and also received some information about the lake from my godfather. They made the fish attractors out of huge logs that were chained together with big wires. Some of these logs were floating when the lake was first filled up. So you could see them on the surface. The trees were about 2ft to 3ft in diamter and about 20ft long in some cases.

    I also read that they use old tires that were formed together and sunk. They are called Tire Fish Attractors. The logs were labeled Rectangular Fish Attractors and Circular Fish Attractors on the very early maps of Patoka Lake.

    I tried to locate some of these fish attractors using the Garmin Mapsource Fishing Hot Spots Digital map on my Garmin eTrax Vista using the onscreen map display. When I got the boat's map screen pointer over the icon for the hazard nothing showed up on my depth finder. I think that the harards are not showing up properly on my map. Who knows why. Maybe it was just this one hazard (fish attractor) that I was working with this day. I have not tried to locate many of these using this method.

    You could be within 100ft of these things and not see them on my depth finder if the water is shallow. I guess it depends on how much of the bottom your depth finder displays. I have a humminbird lcr 8000 unit and the transducer cone is only 20deg. So in 30ft of water I can only see a 10ft round area of the lake bottom. So I could be off a bit and not see the submerged raft of logs.

    I wish that they would rename these icons from hazards to fish attractors to make their maps more accurate.


    Regards,

    Moose1am

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