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  1. #1
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    Richman (18 posts)
    Jul-25-05, 05:28 PM (EST)
    "For the Record, Jim"
    Since the original thread was locked....here is the increase in trophy heads out of Ohio within the last 10 years
    Ohio B&C entries from the 3rd edition of
    Records of North American Whitetail Deer to the 4th edition:


    3rd edition (1995) 4th edition (2003) % change
    Typicals 73 179 up 145%
    Non-typicals 48 91 up 89%



    Ohio P&Y entries from the 1 st edition of
    Bowhunting Records of North American Whitetail Deer to the 2nd edition:


    1st edition 2nd edition % change
    Typicals 948 1,634 up 72%
    Non-typicals 71 126 up 77%

    Just stating the facts.

    Rich




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    daking (7 posts)
    Jul-26-05, 03:09 PM (EST)
    1. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
    Yeah, kind of a convenient time for the post to get locked...just about time for the facts to come out. The most recent edition of Kentucky Afield quotes new Commissioner Gassett as saying their studies indicate that the ill-fated crossbow during archery season plan would have No (read none, zero, zip, nada) effect on the herd or flock. According to him it was a social issue. So now we have:
    Accuasations of commission members profiting from the sale of crossbows (never even remotely close to proven)

    It will decimate the resource (disproven by the good folks who built the resource from nothing and may have the greatest stake in protecting it).

    And the post is locked. Hmmmm....

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    JimDicken (584 posts)
    Jul-26-05, 08:23 PM (EST)
    2. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
    I locked the thread because the points were being made over and over and were not changing.
    YOU are proving my point here...
    WHY NO COMPROMISE?
    WHY TAKE THE CHANCE..
    WHY are YOU ignoring the facts..
    Kentucky Officials state.. Gun Hunters initially will be the biggest increase in Crossbow. OUR OWN GUN STATISTICS PROVE.. GUN HUNTERS SHOOT BUCKS.. One Buck limit or not that is more pressure on BUCKs.
    32% of Archery stores in CROSSBOW states CLOSE reducing revenue.
    KENTUCKY OFFICIALS admit that there will be no SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN REVENUE FROM sale of new PERMITS.
    All of the above are FACTS.
    Ohio has DROPPED from the top 5 in the region to the bottom 5 while Kentucky has risen and gotten AHEAD of OHIO and we have been hunting a shorter period of time.
    THE MAJORITY of hunters and sportsmen in the state are against the issue it failed this year BECAUSE of that.
    WHY NO COMPROMISE.. answer that question or I will lock this thread TOO!....
    You posted information that showed exactly OPPOSITE numbers for OHIO last week.. now this week they are doing great which is it.
    ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!
    Same as before..
    this is my post it is not reflective of Fishin.com its owner or advertisers.

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    JimDicken (584 posts)
    Jul-26-05, 08:34 PM (EST)
    3. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
    >Yeah, kind of a convenient time
    >for the post to get
    >locked...just about time for the
    >facts to come out.
    >The most recent edition of
    >Kentucky Afield quotes new Commissioner
    >Gassett as saying their studies
    >indicate that the ill-fated crossbow
    >during archery season plan would
    >have No (read none, zero,
    >zip, nada) effect on the
    >herd or flock. According
    >to him it was a
    >social issue. So now
    >we have:
    Good men as intelligent as MR. Gasset are taking into account different factors. This is NOT a social issue.. IT IS A RESOURCE ISSUE.. it is being touted as a social issue so that the people against it can be targeted as selfish and self centered which is NOT the case. MR. Gasset's own statements are some of the BEST proof that this is NOT a social issue.
    ( Don't get me wrong there are some for whom this is social.. but the majority are against this for RESOURCE REASONS ONLY!)
    Mr. Sullivan and company are aware of this but ignoring it to distort the issue and make this appear to be ignorance against science.. when in fact it is science against science.

    >
    >Accuasations of commission members profiting from
    >the sale of crossbows (never
    >even remotely close to proven)

    I retracted that since I can not confirm it.
    >
    >
    >It will decimate the resource (disproven
    >by the good folks who
    >built the resource from nothing
    >and may have the greatest
    >stake in protecting it).

    NO ONE EVER said it would decimate the resource. IT Has been suggested that the take of BUCKS would increase due to this and change the dynamic of the herd AS FISH AND WILDLIFE AND MR. GASSETT have told us they want it?
    GASSETT in the past has said that 50 /50 take does over bucks is the right mix and a slightly higher take of does would be best. 2004 was the FIRST YEAR that ratio was hit.. WHY CHANGE take the chance of changing it now that the take is right.
    Mr. Gassett has to worry about his job... and with the current set of commissioners who have publicly stated that they wanted to punish people who did not support them .. I can understand his comments.
    >
    >And the post is locked.
    >Hmmmm....

    YOU WONT ANSWER MY QUESTION.. WHY NO COMPROMISE...
    you post conflicting numbers for OHIO and now you want to rehash the same things..
    ANSWER THE QUESTION.. WHY NO COMPROMISE OR THIS WILL BE LOCKED AS WELL!

    This post is made by Jim Dicken and is not reflective of Fishin.com its management or owners or advertisers.


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    daking (7 posts)
    Jul-26-05, 09:43 PM (EST)
    4. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
    Why no compromise? Where was the compromise offered by the other side? A few days late in the season? Crossbow hunters already had their own season and could use their crossbows during gun season? The compromises floated so far paid only lip service to the word compromise.
    The Ohio business has been bandied about quite a bit. The question I have posited before still is unanswered; how does anyone really know what will happen? Does the use of a crossbow turn an otherwise sensible hunter into a buck killing maniac? WHo knows, but it's equally specious for either side to grab onto this argument.

    All of the same arguments get raised, but when reduced to its lowest common denominator, it amounts to a group of hunters who have passed judgement on hunting esthetics, have decided that vertical bows are esthetically superior to the horizontal bow and as such want the horizontal bows relegated to the bottom of the stack.

    Finally, let's look at the trophy buck issue. There are those among us who hunt solely for that trophy rack. Others are meat hunters and will take whatever comes along. Another group just wants to kill a deer. It does not matter what kind of deer, just a deer. Who is morally superior? This is a trick question, because all three groups stand on equal footing. They all pay the same for their tag. They all support the industry by spending money on the sport. What kind of deer someone takes (within the parameters of the law) is their business. For any one group to hold itself out as the moral arbiters for everyone is plain old barbara streisand. We've been down this road before with the naysayers about the opening day of turkey season, the telecheck license system, in-line muzzle loaders and a host of other things. It doesn't wash. Open the **** season and evaluate its results. If after a year or two science dictates that it needs modification, modify it. I'm sick of listening to the self appointed "experts" and "sportsmen" talk out of both sides of their mouth. Give as many opportunities for folks to get into the field as possible and the sport has a chance of surviving. Otherwise it will die. Don't believe it? Look at the way it's played out in Europe. Highly regulated, artificially high barriers to entering the sport and elitism. In most places, European hunting is for the landed rich only. There's the slippery slope you're on. Sound extreme? Who'd have thought in 1969 that lead shot would be banned and you'd have to stand outside in the rain to take a smoke?


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    fishingnetwork (5 posts)
    Jul-26-05, 10:59 PM (EST)
    5. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
    My two cents......All this talk is getting my blood up! Bowhunters are not a different breed of hunter; nor are gun hunters, pistol, muzzleloader or xbow. We are all HUNTERS. The truth is we are very lucky for our resources to have expanded like it has. I used to hear the rabbit & quail hunters complaining about the gun season running into their season. Rather it is traditional muzzeloader vs. in-line muzzeloader w/ scope; or long bow vs. compound, or even fishing boats vs. pleasure boats, it is still a group of a few complainting about sharing the resource with all.
    Our deer herd is boarding overload and if the cross bows will get more people in the field, taking deer, it is a good thing. We as hunters could care less about the economic impacts on Gaylan's or other sporting goods stores. And you all know that is true (unless you have a direct interest in that)

    I for one would love to see the X-bow season come in early so my young son could hunt before it gets cold and before the gun season, when deer are more plentyful. I have no fears that the cross bow will not reduce the trophy population, anymore than is rightfully so, by the ethical hunter that pulled the trigger.

    Should us gun hunters get mad because a bow hunter kills the buck in September that I have watched all summer long and I didnt even get a chance at it? No, because if he was legal, he earned it!

    And more on the issue of trophys.....I am a multi-weapons hunter and I am certain that pressure on a deer herd prior to gun season will.......WITHOUT A DOUBT, preserve trophys. They are still dumb animals, but more pressure equals more caution by the deer. That's right! I argue that x-bows will increase the trophy population, but more importantly it will allow more people the opportunity to hunt.

    With cross bow seasons more liberal, the women and younger children will be able to hunt without making the sacrafices that is required with compoung bow (practice) More enjoyment for the whole family. Deer stands, clothes, scents ect. for the whole family. So will Gaylan's make more money off of my compound w/ acc. or my family buying cross bows and equipment. Really, Jim, the sporting goods stores should want to push this, not knock it down. They stand to gain more money.

    Well its off my chest. I took my own poll and more are for it than against it, but my poll has a plus or minus factor of 7 million.

    See ya in the woods

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    JimDicken (584 posts)
    Jul-26-05, 11:10 PM (EST)
    6. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
    >Why no compromise? Where was
    >the compromise offered by the
    >other side? A few
    >days late in the season?
    > Crossbow hunters already had
    >their own season and could
    >use their crossbows during gun
    >season? The compromises floated
    >so far paid only lip
    >service to the word compromise.
    There was no time for a compromise the rules had to go to the LRC by a certain date. THERE IS TIME now to draw up a compromise that will test the information that we have and whether it will cause problems BEFORE initiating a full Crossbow as Archery rule.
    >
    >
    >The Ohio business has been bandied
    >about quite a bit.
    >The question I have posited
    >before still is unanswered; how
    >does anyone really know what
    >will happen? Does the
    >use of a crossbow turn
    >an otherwise sensible hunter into
    >a buck killing maniac?
    >WHo knows, but it's equally
    >specious for either side to
    >grab onto this argument.
    >

    HOW DOES ANYOEN REALLY KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN? YOUR OWN STATEMENT... Thank You .. Thank You.. thank you.. EXACTLY the reason to approach this with some bit of conservatism and not whole hog. THANK YOU for exactly making my point.
    NO the use of a Crossbow does NOT mean a BUCK killing machine.. BUT the rationale is valid. IF Gun hunters are the first to pick up the Xbow and GUN Hunters take the LARGER majority of BUCKS..what do you THINK they will go after???
    AGAIN .. you are taking this to an extreme to make it look worse than is real. NO ONE has said that Crossbow Hunters are BUCK killing maniacs and no one is painting them as that. However Fish and wildlife figures show.. and their own statements indicate.. Crossbow hunters will kill more bucks than does initially.
    YOU chose to use rhetoric that is inflamatory and which makes this APPEAR to be something OTHER than a resource issue..


    >All of the same arguments get
    >raised, but when reduced to
    >its lowest common denominator, it
    >amounts to a group of
    >hunters who have passed judgement
    >on hunting esthetics, have decided
    >that vertical bows are esthetically
    >superior to the horizontal bow
    >and as such want the
    >horizontal bows relegated to the
    >bottom of the stack.

    NO ONE has passed judgement.. people have concerns and the hunters of the state want the concerns addressed..While the commission on the OTHER hand has decided that they should TELL us what is best.. without addressing any concerns of the people who pay the freight. Your statement above is PURE HOG Manure. I USE A CROSSBOW... I am concerned about the resource NOT about what bow is used.. (YES there are a few.. a very small minority who are against the Xbow for the reasons you state but you give THEM too much credit for this. MOST of the people against this are NOT affiliated with any BOW or Archery organization)
    >
    >Finally, let's look at the trophy >buck issue. There are
    >those among us who hunt >solely for that trophy rack.
    > Others are meat hunters >and will take whatever comes
    >along. Another group just >wants to kill a deer.
    > It does not matter >what kind of deer, just
    >a deer. Who is >morally superior? This is >a trick question, because all >three groups stand on equal >footing. They all pay >the same for their tag. > They all support the
    >industry by spending money on >the sport. What kind
    >of deer someone takes (within the parameters of the law)
    >is their business. For >any one group to hold
    >itself out as the moral >arbiters for everyone is plain
    >old barbara streisand. We've >been down this road before
    >with the naysayers about the >opening day of turkey season,
    >the telecheck license system, in-line >muzzle loaders and a host >of other things.

    I will not argue this point. You are correct. Each of us who follows the rules is entitled to take any deer that is LEGAL.. I will not argue with tis.. HOWEVER a state with TROPHY quality deer herd has a valuable resource that will ENRICH more than hunters. It employs our people and helps to pay for our schools, and roads through taxes. Kentucky has gone ahead of OHIO without the Crossbow. WHY CHANCE IT?


    It >doesn't wash. Open the **** season and evaluate its
    >results.

    So you are willing to risk what it took 20 years to build. HOW MANY TIMES in the last 20 years has ANY season been reduced or changed. IF this change is made it will NOT be reduced. There will be MORE of an outcry to change it back than there is about the issue NOW. With this change ANOTHER special intereste group will be created. Already several people have started setting up Crossbow Associations. Once there is an interest group there will be no changes...
    What you are saying is go buy a bunch of equipment and if it does not harm the herd we will continue to let you use it.. but if we have a problem your just S-O-L.. Thats just a brilliant way to look at it.
    THERE IS NO REASON not to compromise and to do this in INCREMENTS.


    If after a >year or two science dictates >that it needs modification, modify >it. I'm sick of >listening to the self appointed >"experts" and "sportsmen" talk out >of both sides of their >mouth. Give as many >opportunities for folks to get
    >into the field as possible >and the sport has a >chance of surviving. Otherwise >it will die. Don't >believe it? Look at >the way it's played out >in Europe. Highly regulated,
    >artificially high barriers to entering >the sport and elitism. > In most places, European >hunting is for the landed
    >rich only. There's the >slippery slope you're on.
    >Sound extreme? Who'd have >thought in 1969 that lead
    >shot would be banned and >you'd have to stand outside
    >in the rain to take >a smoke?

    All it takes is a year or 2 of this and the whole system could be messed up and take years to correct. This means getting rules changes through the same commission that will TAKE AWAY hunting days and TAKE AWAY portions of each type of hunters days in the field.. WHO IS GOING TO MAKE THE SACRIFICE.. the Xbow guys?? Archery? Rifle and Shotgun? Black Powder?

    Another Question.. How many weapons cliques are we going to allow to join at the table? Spear throwers next.. Pistol Guys?
    Trappers, are we going to allow hunting with dogs like other states..
    JUST BECAUSE we can does that mean we should..
    How many weapons are we going to allow.. is this the last?
    SMOKING KILLS.. It killed my father last year. YES I would have believed that you would have to take a cigarette outside.. because it is unhealthy.
    Crossbow MAY be UNHEALTHY FOR THE HERD from the evidence I am looking at. Crossbow has a season.. It should be expanded.. but it should NOT be included with Archery all at once.

    ONE MORE TIME....
    There was no time for a compromise position.. the rules had to be printed (According to KYDFWR anyway.. and turned in to the LRC for approval.) Had the commissioners started this earlier in the year instead of up against the rules submission deadline there might have been a compromise worked out. However their attempt to sneak this by the Hunters and Fishermen of the state shows a contempt for all of us.
    Their taped comments in the commission meeting concerning taking action to punish the UBK, and another organisation are reprehensible.. and their statement that there should be NO inclusion of Fish and Wildlife in any event whose sponsor was not supporting the commission was Un American.

    This is a democracy. One of the great things about a democracy is that you CAN support the government and its organisations but take UMBRANCE at an issue. THE UBK and others do not support this single issue, but have in the past worked tirelessly to support KYDFWR and UBK is the lead organization that supports the departments Archery in the Schools Program. They took the lead in setting up and recording the State Bow Fishing Records.. and the state Department of Fish and Wildlife has NEVER paid a penny for any space at the Sports Show in Louisville while getting a tremendous amount of GOOD PR for its programs and officers by being at that show. How many people have had their bucks scored by KYDFWR?? Do you want to lose that? How could any sportsman in good conscience support this kind of talk in a commission meeting.

    Terry, your own words prove my points again.
    DO YOU support the type of actions that were taken by the commission. Can you not at least RESPECT the fact that these men believe this could be a problem and are trying to stop it because they REALLY DO have concerns FOR THE RESOURCE?
    If you don't then you are blind.
    I will agree to disagree, but I would NEVER try to stop you and I would NOT categorize you as you are categorizing these good men who are against this issue.

    Wake UP.. Next time it may be an issue that we agree on. The commission must not be allowed to make the kind of divisive rulings and comments as they have done in the last few months.

    Jim Dicken
    This is my statement.. it is NOT approved by Fishin.com its owners or advertisers.




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    VMAXX (503 posts)
    Jul-26-05, 11:15 PM (EST)
    7. "Aint this the fishing forum ??? n/m"
    n/m
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Vmaxx >)))^((">

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    justfishin (177 posts)
    Jul-27-05, 00:17 AM (EST)
    8. "RE: Aint this the fishing forum ??? n/m"
    >n/m
    >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    >
    >Vmaxx >)))^((">

    LMAO LET ME KNOW WHEN WE HAVE A CROSSBOW ROD AND REEL WITH A FISH FINDER IN THE TIP OF THE BOLT!!

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    JimDicken (584 posts)
    Jul-27-05, 01:07 AM (EST)
    9. "You missed the first Series.."
    Where I reported that sources inside the Department of Fish and Wildlife admit that in states where Crossbow has been included with Archery that 32% of Archery Stores closed.
    This will affect fishermen because like Fishing Equipment there is an excise tax that goes to the Department. The Crossbow issue MIGHT result in lower revenue for ALL not just for Hunters.
    While MOST money is spent on what brings it in, it will still affect monies available to the Law Enforcement Division as well as to fishinig and hunting.. and available to the NON Game species..
    ALSO when commissioners threaten to retaliate when sportsmen disagree with them we are all at risk. Imagine if one of them had been FOR the Spoonbill Netting Proposal.
    That is why it I brought it up in the first place.
    Jim Dicken This is MY POST..
    This is NOT approved by Fishin.com its owners or sponsors.

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  2. #2
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    In Reply to a Question

    Posted on the Fishing Board...
    With cross bow seasons more liberal, the women and younger children will be able to hunt without making the sacrafices that is required with compoung bow (practice) More enjoyment for the whole family. Deer stands, clothes, scents ect. for the whole family. So will Gaylan's make more money off of my compound w/ acc. or my family buying cross bows and equipment. Really, Jim, the sporting goods stores should want to push this, not knock it down. They stand to gain more money.

    .................................................. ...........

    I am addressing the above statement which I missed originally...
    Galyans wont make any money they no longer exist.
    The statistics from other states indicate that Archery Stores close. Accessory sales drop significantly in states where the Crossbow becomes an Archery Weapon.
    The benefit of 2 distinct seasons and NOT making Crossbows archery equipment is that there would be an increase in Crossbow Sales, an increase in participation and an increase in Take while at the same time addressing the needs of the herd. It would also have an impact on revenues to the state in a POSITIVE WAY.
    All that is needed is to keep the 2 seperate..
    Give Crossbow the Opening week of archery season, and the last 6 weeks of the season. By keeping them seperate you can also regulate the take.. allowing ONLY does during the first week of the first Crossbow Season.
    Black Powder now has 2 seasons. We do NOT include Black Powder with Rifle and Shotgun Season?
    Why? Fewer people would use the Black Powder Gun ..
    With Archery fewer people use the Compound Bow and the Long Bow.. When the Compound Bow came along fewer people used the Long Bow.. WHY? Ease of use!
    If we include Archery and Crossbow more will use the Crossbow.. which means less taxes from Bow Accessory Sales, and less revenue for the Department, for law enforcement and less need for technicians to work on Bows....
    I am sure that some stores would LOVE to have more Crossbow sales so that they can reduce labor on Arrows and other accesories. However in the long run .. we will all lose.
    This is the part I do not understand.
    We get a Win / Win situation with a lengthening of the season that benefits all. While it is a Lose situation if Crossbow is included with Archery.
    ONCE you create another user group you will NOT be able to go back on a season.
    WAKE UP PLEASE.
    Here is my compromise Proposal for all..
    Crossbow is listed as a SEPERATE WEAPON
    Seperate Seasons are set up.
    Those seasons are to be..
    Archery: Sept.. to Mid January as NOW.
    Crossbow: First 10 days of September season and December through January. MUST take a DOE before a Buck is allowed.. Doe can be taken by any legal means available.. including archery. during the 10 day opener. December to Mid January open season for Does and Bucks.

    That is 52 days plus the 21 in gun season, plus the 2 days of Black Powder when crossbows are legal. Plus the days of Black Powder Season..Total days for Crossbow 80. Out of a season of 130 days.
    That is MORE than 50% of the Deer Season... just for a start.
    IF the take of does to bucks stays at 51 % does to 49% bucks then we can consider allowing more days for Crossbow.

    This is NOT a social issue. It is a RESOURCE issue.
    Do not let Mr. Gasset or any one else try to paint this as such. When the Departments own guidelines for Deer Harvest are ignored and their own statistics are ignored.. then it is NOT a social issue.

    Jim Dicken
    This is my post and is NOT reflective of Fishin.com its owners, or advertisers. It was NOT approved by this website.

  3. #3
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    RE: In Reply to a Question

    Well, I have been watching this one, he he. We are playing the crossbow game down here in TN as well.

    I am a multi weapon hunter but lean towards the bow, a compund bow anyway. Then its rifle and slug gun, maybe one or two days with that pesky muzzleloader as well.

    Depending in what time of day it is I could go either way on the issue.

    On one hand I hate to see our society reward laziness once again and allow crossbows to be used by anyone that doesnt want to practice with a compund or a recurce bow, both of which are fairly easy to use once you get them set up properly.

    On the other hand I see our deer herd continue to grow out of control and new hunters are on the decline. So maybe it is good to allow it to get some new folks out in the woods and maybe we can harvest a record number of deer because of it.

    I just dont really know what the repercussions are of this, I guess we will find out in a few years.

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    One of the Problems

    You will start to see Archery Stores closing... and revenue from Archery Excise Taxes will go down. There are much FEWER accessories to use with a crossbow.
    Top that off with Bolts come in standard sizes and do not need to be cut to length by a tech.. and you have fewer employees needed so you have fewer jobs in the marketplace..
    Ahh the wonders of technology.. Less manual labor.
    Jim Dicken
    Again.. same thing.. my post, does not represent Fishin.com, its owners or advertisers.

  5. #5
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    RE: One of the Problems

    He he, Jim, what about guys like me that do bowhunt and will never buy a crossbow unless I lose an arm or something. Maybe the stores closed because they had poor customer service. Doesnt something like 80 percent of all small business ventures end in failure anyway?

    And I can cut my own arrows, put my own fletching on and so on and so on and the shop I go to is doing just fine.

  6. #6
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    RE: In Reply to a Question

    Well, I don't believe that I would disagree to much with the separate seasons.....just not a "can't shoot a buck before a doe" thing, also, first 10 days of September is stupid. The weather is not fit for hunting. Ten days in late October or November (before gun season) would be fair, provided that it did not overlap with the youth weekend gun season; it could overlap with the early muzzleloader season. That would be like just eight days.

    I not saying that a comprimise is not proper....I am saying that it is not as detrimental as it is being made out to be.

    Jim, you say that it will cost us money, exactly how much is the average taxes collected in Kentucky from archery sales. Say a five year average. I didn't think that it was more than one-tenth of one-percent of the overall budget.



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    RE: Moved From Fishing Board.

    It's interesting that this topic died like a stone when it was moved from fishing to hunting. I believe that when stripped from pejorative, most hunters:

    1) Understand that the crossbow season would not have had the deleterious effect on the buck/doe ratio despite some specious and out-of-context numbers from Ohio might be construed to mean.

    2) Most hunters don't care if crossbow hunters get to use their tools during bow season.

    3) The arguments about lost revenues from excise taxes and archery stores going bust are red herrings.

    Thus endeth the lesson.

    Terry Sullivan

  8. #8
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    RE: Moved From Fishing Board.

    >It's interesting that this topic died
    >like a stone when it
    >was moved from fishing to
    >hunting. I believe that
    >when stripped from pejorative, most
    >hunters:
    >

    It dropped because the fishing board gets 4 times the traffic or more. The fishermen see my point.. I.e Danny etc..

    >1) Understand that the crossbow season
    >would not have had the
    >deleterious effect on the buck/doe
    >ratio despite some specious and
    >out-of-context numbers from Ohio might
    >be construed to mean.

    That is NOT what Fish and Wildlife's Own Statements are saying.
    Gun Hunters shoot Bucks to a VERY Large percentage over does. IF they are the primary users of crossbow then the primary target becomes BUCKS..

    >2) Most hunters don't care
    >if crossbow hunters get to
    >use their tools during bow
    >season.

    Not True and you know this.. IF it affects the herd and no evidence has been produced OTHER Than opinions to indicate if this will hurt the herd or the Turkey Flock proceeding with CAUTION is necessary and SMART.
    >
    >3) The arguments about lost revenues
    >from excise taxes and archery
    >stores going bust are red
    >herrings.

    RED HERRING"S.. because YOU say so. Because you do not want to admit that it is true. These figures come from people INSIDE KYDFWR. The next attempt to include crossbow with archery will be even more divisive and you will see Archery Stores coming out against this. The Statistics are correct. OVER a 30% loss in number of Archery Stores in states where Crossbow was included with Archery.
    Ohio's numbers are strange and because of the difference in lay of the land are less than accurate for Kentucky, but a few things are evident.. IN OHIO the take for Bucks is highest among Crossbow Hunters.
    This is NOT a social issue it is a Resource issue.
    The majority of people against the inclusion of crossbow are against if for Quality of Herd and Quality of the Flock reasons. One bad season.. on OFF season .. one weather beaten season where the Archery take drops and the Gun season sees great success and we are back to lopsided takes of does to bucks. Ad in the unknown of Crossbow and the possibility for a problem is even higher. WHY THIS RUSH TO DO so much at one time. Why not bite off a small piece at a time and see what the results are. We started with 2 3 day Gun Seasons.. We did NOT start with a Full Week. We now have up to 3 weeks with guns.
    If the take goes up for Crossbow will the gun guys be cut out of further increases? Archery? Black Powder? We are giving Crossbow 100% of the season. WHY?

    >
    >Thus endeth the lesson.

    NEW LESSON Terry.. You still can not answer any of my points with other than accusations that they are Red Herrings.. You can not disprove any point I am making. Lesson?
    Not Social / Resource driven
    Revenue Increase / Revenue Decrease
    These are the basic reasons for the Commissioners Running this through improperly.. They SAY it is social when it is NOT, they say it will increase revenue.. when it won't and It will increase participation.. when in fact it will only change the weapon preference.. And all of this from KYDFWR own mouth.

    Jim Dicken
    I wrote this.. It is not approved by Fishin.com its owners or advertisers...






  9. #9
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    RE: Moved From Fishing Board.

    1) Wal-Mart, Dicks, Cabelas, Bass Pro and the like have killed more archery stores than the crossbow ever could. You assert that crossbow hunters need less tackle. Still, they need tackle. It's going to be bought somewhere. Mostly it will be bought from the efficient sellers. Is the purpose of setting a hunting season to keep mom and pop retaillers in business? If you have a beef with factors that put archery shops out of business, look to big-box retaillers and mail order. Clearly, this is a red herring. Where do you get your 30% number for archery store failure and how can you directly link it to crossbows as opposed to other economic factors (competition, mismanagement, macro economic changes and such)? Your number can simply not be supported by any discernable fact.

    2) You have stated that crossbow hunters take the largest numbers of bucks in Ohio. Is that an absolute number or a proportionate number? Were they trophy bucks? Are the crossbow hunters more skilled than other disciplines so that they can take more bucks? By your own admission the Ohio statistics are strange.

    3) Rush to set up a season? So that crossbow hunters can get a few crumbs swept from the table and face this battle each year? The OFFICIAL line from the KDFWR is that the flock/herd can easily sustain the pressure from crossbow hunting...the grumblings of the disgruntled employee notwithstanding.

    4) What purpose would it serve for the commission to pass a regulation that would hurt the resource or the economics of hunting? The previously floated argument that some had a financial interest has been widely disproven. Are they stupid? Do they want to ruin hunting? Remember they were elected by you and me and selected by the governor. You and I had a say in who they are.

    The fact of the matter, Jim, is that your arguments, no matter how often stated do not hold any water. In fact, the only reason that I bother to keep posting is not to change your mind but to keep the new reader informed about the differences in how you see things and how I see things. It's a battle for the minds of the public. One would hope that reason will prevail. That's a scary proposition, being that a relatively loud but small group got this thing derailed for 2005. What do you want to bet crossbow season is a go for 2006?


    Terry Sullivan



  10. #10
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    RE: One of the Problems

    As Jim Pointed out it has ONLY happened in states with Crossbow, and YOU would be an exception if Ohio is an indication.. but OHIO is not Kentucky so we are ONLY supposed to use stats from there if Mr. Sullivan Ok's it and it supports his position.

  11. #11
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    RE: Moved From Fishing Board.

    >1) Wal-Mart, Dicks, Cabelas, Bass Pro >and the like have killed >more archery stores than the >crossbow ever could. You
    >assert that crossbow hunters need >less tackle. Still, they
    >need tackle. It's going >to be bought somewhere. Mostly
    >it will be bought from >the efficient sellers. Is >the purpose of setting a >hunting season to keep mom >and pop retaillers in business? > If you have a >beef with factors that put >archery shops out of business, >look to big-box retaillers and >mail order. Clearly, this >is a red herring. >Where do you get your >30% number for archery store >failure and how can you >directly link it to crossbows >as opposed to other economic >factors (competition, mismanagement, macro economic
    >changes and such)? Your >number can simply not be >supported by any discernable fact.

    I got the number from a source in Fish and Wildlife. I will not expose that person since doing so might get him fired.
    As for the assertion that Dick's and Walmart and Bass Pro have closed more stores.. NOT IN KENTUCKY.. NOT IN LOUISVILLE. As for the reason for setting a hunting season it is to do several things.. #1 to manage the herd.. #2 To provide recreation, and food to the hunters who pay the bills, #3 Economic Development.
    This includes OPENING and sustaining businesses like Hotels, Motels, Department stores, Call makers and YES the Mom and Pop Archery Stores. How do I link it? Simple the statistics came from states with Crossbow as Archery. Can I PROVE that it is the only reason.. NO! but it is rather coincidental that it has occurred ONLY in states with Crossbow as Archery? Crossbow hunters do not need less tackle.. they need less to hunt with like accessories. Tackle is for fishing.. they do not need gloves, new pins for sites, balancers and arrows fletched or cut. Yes they need strings and rail lube.. that is about it. Oh and broadheads.. No silencers, no whisker biskets, none of the extras for a crossbow you need for bows..
    Dick's, Cabela's and the Big Boxes do not offer shooting lanes or several services that many archery stores offer. I know Dick's and Cabela's do not offer fletching.. they do cut arrows or at least Galyans did.. before it was Dick's
    >
    >
    >2) You have stated that crossbow >hunters take the largest numbers >of bucks in Ohio. >Is that an absolute number
    >or a proportionate number? >Were they trophy bucks?
    >Are the crossbow hunters more >skilled than other disciplines so >that they can take more >bucks? By your own
    >admission the Ohio statistics are >strange.

    The numbers I got from Ohio were that the Crossbow is the major weapon for the taking of Bucks in Ohio. PERIOD.. Absolute?? Not gonna answer that cause it makes no sense. Nothing Strange about OHIO.. ONLY YOUR PRESENTATION is strange I said. One day you show Kentucky AHEAD of Ohio and the next you selectively leave OUT the numbers and show ONLY Ohio stats. I did not say Ohio's stats were strange! YOU are strange and the way YOU bring up the stats are strange.. and apparently the only stats that are relevant are the stats YOU decide are the ones we should look at.
    >
    >3) Rush to set up a >season? So that crossbow
    >hunters can get a few >crumbs swept from the table
    >and face this battle each >year? The OFFICIAL line
    >from the KDFWR is that >the flock/herd can easily sustain
    >the pressure from crossbow hunting...the >grumblings of the disgruntled employee >notwithstanding.

    Rush? A few Crumbs?
    The OFFICIAL line is suspect when commissioners threaten state organizations and individuals with retaliation for disagreeing with them. Are they doing the same thing to the people who are saying that the resource can handle the pressure? If a biologist agreed with the people who say 130+ days are too many to start off with would he still have a job?
    What disgruntled employee are you speaking of?
    Rush? Yeah when it is brought up in the last month before NEW hunting regs must go to the LRC.. and when the issue is disguised as a Crossbow Survey DISCUSSION.
    YOU made the dumb statement "Do it and see what happens.. change it if it hurts the herd" (I am paraphrasing here..)
    And like I said.. when was the last time any season was taken BACK once it had been approved. How much damage to the herd is acceptable to you if you are wrong???
    >
    >4) What purpose would it serve >for the commission to pass
    >a regulation that would hurt >the resource or the economics
    >of hunting? The previously >floated argument that some had
    >a financial interest has been >widely disproven. Are they
    >stupid? Do they want >to ruin hunting? Remember >they were elected by you >and me and selected by >the governor. You and
    >I had a say in >who they are.

    What purpose? How about selfishness and arrogance. How about a totally different agenda than that of the majority of hunters?
    Almost everyone has agreed that the changes to the Turkey Season were ill concieved but they were pushed through by the same group of commissioners. Even Art Lander agreed that the change in dates for Turkey Season was wrong.. but they made the change any way over the objections of the NWTF and some biologists. What would it serve..?? I have no clue.. ask the commission. HOWEVER.. the HISTORY OF THE KYDFWR is one of conservative growth and change in laws. I sincerely believe that if the Man (and here I feel very bad I can not remember his name) who Fathered the Turkey Restoration were still alive he would have had a fit over this new regulation and the way it was passed favoring Crossbows.
    Why do Crossbows get so much of the season?
    Why not enlarge the gun season?
    Why not longer Black Powder?
    My answer would be ... More Buck Pressure. The IN KENTUCKY STATS prove my point and you NEVER answer that.... so screw the OHIO Stats.. tell me about Kentucky and the admissions by KYDFWR that Gun Guys will be the major increase initially in Crossbow users? How about the FACT that Gun HUNTERS kill the ABSOLUTE majority of Bucks in this state and Archers take the does? This stat in and by itself indicates that going to a full 130+ days for Crossbow is NOT a good idea. We got it right this year.. why would you want to screw with that..and if it was right what is the hurry to add so many days for Crossbow?WHY do it all at once? Why not phase it in and see what the results and pressures are to the herd..
    Selfishness on the part of people who WANT the crossbow.. is the answer. NOT consideration of the herd OR the Budget of the Department is on your mind. OH and the budget was THE reason given to us for doing this.. Increasing permit sales and taxes..
    Both of these were RED HERRINGs.
    >
    >The fact of the matter, Jim, >is that your arguments, no
    >matter how often stated do >not hold any water. >In fact, the only reason >that I bother to keep >posting is not to change
    >your mind but to keep >the new reader informed about
    >the differences in how you >see things and how I
    >see things. It's a >battle for the minds of >the public. One would >hope that reason will prevail.
    > That's a scary proposition, being that a relatively loud
    >but small group got this >thing derailed for 2005.
    >What do you want to >bet crossbow season is a
    >go for 2006?

    I am holding a bucket and it is NOT leaking. Your the one holding a seive. You are not going to keep any one informed by positing the absolute NONSENSE that you have already. YOUR OWN arguments are the best reason NOT to increase Crossbow to a full 130+ days.
    ONE MORE TIME.. This is NOT a loud but small group. The meeting at Fish and Wildlife showed that it is a large, vocal and intelligent group that is ready to fight the small group YOU yourself represent... YOU are the only person coming here because YOU are ALONE. Most posts have been in support of my position..
    LOUD but small?? IN your dreams only. Keep lying, Terry. Eventually the lie becomes the truth is you push it long enough.. "Who said that any way" I am sure you would know?
    The only way this will pass as it was proposed in 2005 is for the commission to AGAIN vote it in in SECRET!

    Jim Dicken
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  12. #12
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    Fellas

    You guys are missing something here.

    I am in TN and we have also done the same thing KY has done, crossbows are legal here during the archery season as well.

    Clearly put in place to thin out our deer herd, especially one year after the liberal units were put in place where does are pretty much free game.

    And wont archery shops sell crossbows??

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