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  1. #13
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Thanks for the kind words about our facility, Tobias. We do try, although I must say I think there are some other places in the stat that are pretty nice as well.

    When comparing Indiana waters with those of KY and TN, and a few others, there are some cold hard facts that many lake users do not know or understand.

    The first is that most of that difference is about topography, not fishing or fishery management. Some of the big rivers in those states run in long deep valleys between large hills. Compared to TN and KY, Indiana is relatively flat. That is fact one.

    Another fact is that very few lakes have ever been built in the USA with a primary design focus of fisheries management. They are built to control flooding; which is why the source of the funding came through the US Army Corps of Engineers (COE). I some of the southern lakes and other agency was formed as the Tennessee Valley Authorit (TVA). In other places dams were built by the Bureau of Reclamation.

    The purpose of nearly all the big man-made waters in the USA were built for flood control and/or hydroelectric production. Fishing, boating and other recreation activities are nice bonus features in some of these projects, but are not why the lakes were built; and were never seen as a source of funding for lake development. They are still not.

    Suggestions like damming the White river to make a large lake because anglers feel they need more water is an ill-informed suggestion. Such a a project would likely cost billions of dollars in today’s marketplace. If there is no need for flood control or power production, and if we are to begin building large lakes for fishing, the cost of fishing would be astronomical. Not only is there the cost of the construction, but the project would also require the purchase of all the involved land. Indiana has some 6.3 million people. At least one estimate indicates about 10% of that population fish at least once per year. That would be about 630,000 people to split the cost. At even $1 Billion, the cost of such a lake built by IDNR would require each angler in the state to pay something in the neighborhood of $1,587 each, just of that one project.

    Another fact is that the days of building big lakes in the US are probably over. Most of the large rivers are now controlled to some degree, and environmental concerns would cause serious problems getting large land areas flooded nowadays. I know of no initiatives out there in the management pipeline that appear to offer any real hope for new large lakes of the scale we saw built in the 50’s and 60’s, and 70’s. There is just not going to be any new 60K acre lake in Indiana in our lifetimes. What we need to focus on is how to best utilize what we have and protect the resource that is left. That means better and more appropriate watershed management, more effort on enforcement and education about things that damage angling overall. And that is going to cost a lot of money that anglers are going to have to pay; because no one else wants it to happen enough to pay for it for us.

  2. #14
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    I really do not understand all the crying.... Indiana does not pay crap when it comes to fees.

    Texas is $33 just for the license... and that only lets you fish inland freshwater lakes. We pay $17... basically half.

    And then people saying there are no fish here???? Mike call me crazy but was there not a 30 POUND sack pulled out of Boggs this spring in a tournament. With the exception of maybe three or four lake in this country any professional would take that bag. It takes 20 pounds to win tournaments at Patoka or Monroe almost all year long.

    Indiana has more fisherman out there per fishable acre than any other state... so yeah... there night be a bit more pressure. You have three options the way I see it- 1-fish out of state and spend more money 2-stay at home 3-DEAL WITH IT!!!

    JUST STOP CRYING.......

  3. #15
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    The deer hunting has picked up over the last few years. It seems like the fishing just stays the same. I stay in Indiana to fish and go south to catch.

  4. #16
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Yes, there was a 30 pound bag here this year. There was also a fish over nine pounds taken this spring. West Boggs is currently producing some very large bass.

    As for your three options, I think a lot of folks are taking #3 and dealing with it. We saw a record crowd here last weekend as other regional lakes were being impaceted by flooding and we are not. Gas prices, boating fees and licenses costs do not seem to be reducing the desire for people to enjoy the water here or elsewhere.

    One of the reasons I am so interested in understanding the relationships between cost and perceived value is that we are 100% self funded here. Anything and everything we try to do to improve our facilities must come from user fees. The trick is to keep those fees are high as we can to produce the revenue for development withour breaking the value perception line where the price becomes too high for too many people. That tightrope seems more dificult with anglers than with other user groups, and we need to better understand why.

  5. #17
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Mike,

    To answer some of your question: I use to fish West Boggs over 20 times per year and always purchased a yearly permit. The last 2 years I have not and only fished about 2 times each year. There is occasionally a big bag weighed in at Bogss like John did earlier this year, but compared to 2 and 3 years ago the fishing is nothing. 2-3 years ago if you didn't have 24+ lbs you couldn't even think about getting a check. No most tournaments are being won with 15-17 lbs. I understand that you fund yourself but the rates have gotten ridiculous.

    As far as the other state lakes, I don't see a need to spend more money on facilities and such. Put the money into the water with fish, structure, and studies. Most of the fisheries in the surrounding states of Indiana have no launch fees and the fisheries are outstanding. On KY and Barkley for example they are constantly shocking and doing studies to see what needs to be done.

    My biggest gripe in Indiana is as stated before. I already pay for a license, boat registration, trailer registration and all my other taxes, why should I need to buy another boating permit. Until that law changes I'll keep fishing the river a couple times a year, Boggs a couple times a year and the other 30 or so on KY and Barkley.

    The statement was made that it takes 20lbs to win tourneys on Patoka and Monroe all the time. If the fisheries are so good why is it that none of the large tournament trails come anywhere in Indiana other than the rare stop on the Ohio River?

    Charlie

  6. #18
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Charlie, now you have my undivided attention. When you say the fees have gotten ridiculous, I assume you mean at West Boggs since that was the apparent context of the comment.

    So, tell me why you feel our rates are ridiculous. We currently charge $5 for a daily park entrance fee, and another $7 for a daily launch permit; for a total of $12. At what dollar level do these activities become overpriced for you? If somehow it were possible for you to determine the proper fee structure, what rates for these fees would you think appropriate, and why? I really am interested in knowing your views on this.

    You also state that you don’t see the need to spend money on facilities and such; preferring that the money go into fish, structure, and studies. I do see that you direct that position to lakes other than West Boggs, but the theory seems to be universal. In view of the user group data, I don’t see how that can work.

    We don’t charge a “fishing” fee of any sort, although by law a state license is required. The closest thing I can come up with to measure user levels would be boating fees. In 2007 the total revenue for boating fees for all boating comprised 8.23% of the park’s total revenue. I have no idea how much of that was related to fishing and how much to pleasure boating, but even if it was all fishing related your suggestion would direct management efforts away from the users that provide over 90% of our revenue. I’m sure Monroe, Patoka and other lakes would find similar data to deal with. The fact is that while fishing is very important to the people who do it, those people are a small minority of the general lake user population.

  7. #19
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    I don't understand all of the complaining about Indiana being such a horrible place to fish. I don't even have a boat, and my dad and I always seem to find places where we catch a lot of fish. We've only been fishing 3 times this year and have already caught 192 crappie (all but maybe 3 or 4 at least 10 inches), 2 rainbow trout, 4 walleye, 1 carp, 2 stripers, several perch and catfish, and a couple largemouth bass. Those were all caught while crappie fishing. We also have a couple places we go to where we can catch 20 largemouths apiece in just a few hours, all keepers, if we want to. These aren't even farm ponds that we fish, they are well known lakes. So I guess I just don't see why so much crying about the fishing.

  8. #20
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    Thumbs down Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by bassmanic1 View Post
    The fishing in Indiana is what you make of it . A lot of guys dont have the funds to pay for a trip down south and the out-of-state lis. fee's . Personaly I fish a lot of strip pits in southern IN which is fairly loaded with them . Most have towns close by for gas & bait . Greene Sullivan , Minnehaha , and all the 1000's of unnamed pits across the state . Dogwood , West Boggs , Brookville all have good fishing and you dont need a 20' Ranger to fish them . Hovey Lake used to be known all over the mid-west for crappie fishing but Ducks Unlimited and the DNR took care of that . The Ohio river gives up massive catches of monster catfish and Cabelas held a catfish tourny there not long ago . All in all I wouldnt call IN fishing "awful" . I think EVERYBODY is a bit grumpy due to the price of gas , which I believe is the government is behind to stop global warming .
    Please give me more on why Hovey Lake was messed up by the DU and Indiana DNR. I assumed it was all Indiana DNR fault. The fact they redid the drain.

    The fact they shut down the camping, because they were too lazy or did have money put in Handicap access which ever it was not good.

    Yes I do catch a lot of fish in Indiana, but since I have retired, I have had a chance to fish several other states and Canada and I have had a chnace to see what GOOD MANAGEMENT can do. Indiana DNR does not put out the effort and put their money in the right places. It is not the entire DNR but probably the top pencil pushers and a few poor property managers.

    I know most of the Southern Indiana Conservation officers and they do a great job

  9. #21
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_H View Post
    wkerber, were you a conservation officer? I also fished the Eel and Wabash as a kid and still do once in awhile, and I remember a conservation officer name Kerber, just curious.
    That was my Dad.

  10. #22
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    The fees aren't an issue for me. Its the water quality, habitat, and fishery. They just haven't been taken care of in Indiana. Although, some water ways like the white river have improved in recent years, the majority have deterioated significantly in the last 30-40 years. I don't think a lot of people can really understand this because 30 years ago there just wasn't as many people using the lakes and rivers as there are today. I think that may account for the lack of outcry and pressure on the State.

  11. #23
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_fisher View Post
    . We also have a couple places we go to where we can catch 20 largemouths apiece in just a few hours, all keepers, if we want to. These aren't even farm ponds that we fish, they are well known lakes.
    Awww Common............20 keepers in a few hours from the bank on a public lake???? That a wee bit far fetch IMO. Anyhow, our fishes are still there it just the pressure have gone way up so fishing is not easy. If you're not KVD, don't expect to catch fish like KVD.

  12. #24
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    Re: indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

    Anyone here that knows me at all, knows that I have a high regard for the professionals of IDNR. And while I currently work in a county agency, I started my career with IDNR way back in 1972. I worked then as a biologist assistant out of the North Fork shop on Monroe Reservoir. That means I have been in this business now for 36 years. There is, I’m sad to say, some truth in many comments about a lack of initiative by the state over the last 30-40 years. But that comes from the political sector, not from to professional staff.

    When I started there, IDNR was full of people that loved the outdoors and cherished each day they had an opportunity to mix their vocations and their avocations. Everyone in the central office hunted, fished and enjoyed the products of their labors along with the public. Today too much is run by political appointees, lawyers and bean counters. The momentum of the department is too often captured by the environmental politics of the moment. Before we blame that on the current Governor, I have watched the problem grow over the years under governors of both parties. I have often said that the if a young person is planning college today for a career in resource management, the most important science class to take is political science. A degree in law with a minor in political science would put one in a good position to do well in the modern system.

    Don’t make the mistake of thinking the field people are part of that problem. They mostly hate it as much as the rest of us do. The biologists, ICO’s, and property managers are still there because they love the outdoors. But if you stroll up the food chain past the green/tan uniforms to the place where neckties grow, you will begin to encounter the professional bureaucrat. They feed on the back-pats and kudos from the political sector and tend to steer the organization more towards being an environmental protection unit rather than a natural resource conservation unit; because that is the politics of the day.

    Is there a solution? Can it be turned around before it is too late? If I knew the answer to that I’d be rich by now.

    Just my two cents.

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