indiana is awful! where do you rate it?

[Moose1am]

I hear you Mike.

I wish this state would do more for wildlife and fisheries still.

[firstrock]

Great discussion folks.

Let me add a few comments. First, IDNR is a governmental agency and until it is a separate entity politics will always have first priority. The folks at IDNR are committed to our natural resources not raising money. Unfortunately in Indiana, being committed to natural resources also means being in bed with politicians if you expect to get anything done. It's not the preferred arrangement but it's better than nothing!

To those of you who think Indiana doesn't have good fisheries I ask you this: what have you personally done to make it better? Bought a license? How about paying launch fee's? Registering your boat? These fee's largely go towards maintaining what we currently have, not necessarily improving the fishery. If you want a better fishery, get involved at some level. Join a watershed group, improve the headwaters that feed our lakes and reservoirs, lobby your elected officials to make improvements and add funding to IDNR, work with the SWCD's to impove land use practices. These are the easiest and best ways to improve angling along with education programs. Far too many people are willing to offer their opinion on how to make things better but those same folks do little in the way of active participation.

If you want better angling opportunities in Indiana do something about it besides criticizing those agencies entrusted with preserving and protecting what we have!

John Bunner
Indiana Smallmouth Alliance

[MikeAxsom]

John, Kudos for "getting it". Too few really do. Your discussion of the relationship with politics is to the point and accurate. If we sportsmen and managers are really interested in making a difference we should quit bemoaning the system that does not give us an advantage, and work within it to take the advantage. Even here in Indiana, I think, if we could become effectively organized we could be an unstoppable political force.

But, alas, too many of our peers are like Grumpy of the 7 Dwarfs. No matter what is going on their attitude is “I don’t understand it but I’m against it”. That is often a matter of them falling victim to the efforts of professional politicians. If Mitch Daniels were to propose building 10 new large lakes, some lake proponents would be against it because they will not support a Republican governor. And if there was a Democrat in office that proposed the same plan, there would be Republican anglers that would oppose it for the same reason. That is one thing that makes the left wing kooks so powerful. They actually place their agendas above part politics. For that, if for nothing else, they are sort of admirable. It lets them with their small numbers kick our large number butts at nearly every turn.

[idbefishing]

Great discussion folks.

Let me add a few comments. First, IDNR is a governmental agency and until it is a separate entity politics will always have first priority. The folks at IDNR are committed to our natural resources not raising money. Unfortunately in Indiana, being committed to natural resources also means being in bed with politicians if you expect to get anything done. It's not the preferred arrangement but it's better than nothing!

To those of you who think Indiana doesn't have good fisheries I ask you this: what have you personally done to make it better? Bought a license? How about paying launch fee's? Registering your boat? These fee's largely go towards maintaining what we currently have, not necessarily improving the fishery. If you want a better fishery, get involved at some level. Join a watershed group, improve the headwaters that feed our lakes and reservoirs, lobby your elected officials to make improvements and add funding to IDNR, work with the SWCD's to impove land use practices. These are the easiest and best ways to improve angling along with education programs. Far too many people are willing to offer their opinion on how to make things better but those same folks do little in the way of active participation.

If you want better angling opportunities in Indiana do something about it besides criticizing those agencies entrusted with preserving and protecting what we have!

John Bunner
Indiana Smallmouth Alliance

Yeah, you tell em bro! Ask not what the state can do for you but what you can do for the state. As for me, I'm too broke to do anything.

[MikeAxsom]

I can't help but be surprised at the number of times we see people complain about money when discussing fishing. After 36 years in this business it seems to me that this is one of the most unfounded complaints out there in the world of outdoor recreation. Nothing I know of offers the level and volume of entertainment for the money than does fishing. $14 per year for a license, a few bucks for bait and snacks, and as little or as much as we choose to spend on tackle and equipment, strikes me as a bargain.

It has long been my suspicion that some of the weeping and wailing we so often see in these boards may come from a subconscious reaction from a special segment of folks that bought into the idea that buying a bass boat, truck and $10K in tackle was going to be their ticket out of the boring day job and make them rich and famous like the guys on TV. When that does not happen and they find themselves struggling to make the $400 truck payment and the $700 boat payment while still working that day job, they become convinced that someone is plotting against them and keeping them from being happy like they intended to be. All of a sudden the guys with the big boats and dreams are the ones complaining about launch fees and the lack of that one big fish they know they would have caught if the stupid DNR would just produce it for them; while the folks fishing for fun with the kids are still happy.

What a pity that so many seem to have fallen into this trap.

[bassmanic1]

I can't help but be surprised at the number of times we see people complain about money when discussing fishing. After 36 years in this business it seems to me that this is one of the most unfounded complaints out there in the world of outdoor recreation. Nothing I know of offers the level and volume of entertainment for the money than does fishing. $14 per year for a license, a few bucks for bait and snacks, and as little or as much as we choose to spend on tackle and equipment, strikes me as a bargain.

It has long been my suspicion that some of the weeping and wailing we so often see in these boards may come from a subconscious reaction from a special segment of folks that bought into the idea that buying a bass boat, truck and $10K in tackle was going to be their ticket out of the boring day job and make them rich and famous like the guys on TV. When that does not happen and they find themselves struggling to make the $400 truck payment and the $700 boat payment while still working that day job, they become convinced that someone is plotting against them and keeping them from being happy like they intended to be. All of a sudden the guys with the big boats and dreams are the ones complaining about launch fees and the lack of that one big fish they know they would have caught if the stupid DNR would just produce it for them; while the folks fishing for fun with the kids are still happy.

What a pity that so many seem to have fallen into this trap.

Mike ,
I think you are way off base . Sure , there are a lot of guys & gals who dream of making it into big time tournament fishing but they dont blame the "stupid DNR" for not making that dream come true . They complaints about fee's is the same as complaints about property taxes , wheel taxes , ect. ect. .. Most people look at outdoor recreation as a god given FREE right and resent paying for it , which isnt good . We as outdoors people need to help protect it by paying to use it . Its human nature to resent government intervention but in this case its a nessesary evil . Just keep up the good work and try to ignore the few who cry about every little fee - most of us grumble but pay it knowing it is for a good cause . Now the price of fuel is different matter , grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !

[MikeAxsom]

I’m sure there are people in all categories in this issue, but from my many years of dealing with anglers there is some inverse correlation between the amount of money spent on boats, gear and toys, and the level of satisfaction in the individual. If what I see is in part correct it may be the ultimate example of the adage that money can’t buy happiness.

[psprowler]

I'd rate Indiana just slightly below "doing the best it can with what is available". Until IDNR becomes its own entity politrix will always have to be dealt with.

If you are strictly a lake fisherman then Indiana doesn't have nearly as much to offer as surrounding states. Flowing water - this state can hold its own. I've stepped foot in over 70 different streams/rivers in this state and I'm not even close to seeing/fishing all that's available.

Mike: do you seriously believe that about the working man spending all that cash to chase the dream? I know you probably see it everyday and I'm not doubting that. The reason I ask is that I couldn't fathom spending that kind of money on truck, boat, and tackle with the belief that someday I'll be flippin' with the big boys. That's a lot of investment with a very minute chance of any return.

[small boat basser]

This has been a pretty interesting discussion.I'll throw in my .02 worth I guess. I fall in line with the couple of guys who have said that Indiana fishing is what you make it. Overall I think it pretty decent. No, it certainly isn't Canada or KY Lake, but you're comparing apples to oranges when you try and make that comparison. No amount of studies and fish research will ever turn any of our reservoirs into those types of fisheries either. Perhaps you should try comparing our fishing to Illinois or Ohio inland lakes, bodies of water that are much more similar in latitude, angling pressure and physical composition. Didn't hear anybody mentioning a fishing vacation to those states.

If you live in the southern part of the state, then driving to KY is an option. And if you live in the far north, then Michigan waters are also an option. For a good bunch of people like myself who live in the central part of the state, those options aren't really feasible from a practicle standpoint. Again, you have to play the hand you're dealt.

On the subject of DNR research, for those who haven't been to the DNR website and seen the hundreds of lake study reports and surveys they've compiled, do yourself a favor and drop on over. Our fisheries certainly aren't hurting because of a lack of studies. Which reminds me about Boggs in particular.

Why is the lake headed the way it is (tourney catches not as good on average)? Seems like 3 reasons as best I can tell. First is harvest. DNR surveys showed harvest of largemouth bass at one point in the not too distant past was 13 pounds per acre. That's a lot of meat being removed from the lake. More recently it was down to 2 pounds, most likely because the easy pickings have gone. This harvest probably started the good growth of larger bass in the lake due to less competition, but it certainly didn't help the numbers in the lake. There again a trade-off.

Reason #2 would be the shad reintroduction. That lake previous to renovation had become a big bass lake due to poor recruitment. Very few bass, but if you caught one it was a good one. Now that the shad have returned, why would anyone expect that the same outcome wouldn't ultimately result? It's still the same lake with the same base composition and physical make-up. You put the same players back into the game and the outcome repeats. I'm guessing they probably don't have that great of spawning conditions down there either which doesn't help. Perhaps that might be an interesting fishery project that could be undertaken (creating artificial spawning grounds in some of the coves during winter drawdown).

Lastly, the bass fisherman and their greed or stupidity (not all of them obviously) are maing things worse much quicker than they normnally would. One of the unintended consequences of the $100 tourney fee has been the rise of illegal tourneys. And while a few groups have been caught holding these, many more have slipped under the radar. It's kind of like hackers in computers where you increase you're software security, and the hackers then adapt and figure out a way around that new security until the software makers modify again. And the cycle goes on and on. Back on the stupidity part...What the clubs have started doing is holding their tourneys much more informally. You slide in like an individual, launch and go about your busiiness fishing a tourney under set hours, and then leave at a certain time and take your loaded livewell full of bass off property to be weighed somewhere else. Of course you don't reenter back into the Park, so either a buddy takes the fish home to his private pond, or they get released into some local water (say a hotel pond) or they simply die and go to waste. Either way lots of nice keeper bass are getting removed from the lake every year and ultimately hurting the fishery there. I'd guess that is the largest reason for average weights starting to drop. But hey, it's the poor discriminated against bass tourney guys who can't afford the permit fee, so it's OK.

Back on costs, I don't see Boggs charging any more than any other lake now days (outside of the permit fee). If I go to any of the central Indiana lakes I'll pay about the same or more. Geist/Morse are over $25 on weekends if you don't get off the water early. Lemon is up to $14-$16 I believe. Eagle Creek is $10, Waveland is the same I think. So I look at it in dollars and sense. For the cost of a $12 launch on most any of our waters, I convert that into driving costs. At $4 a gallon gas, me in my full-sized truck pulling a boat, that buys me 3 gallons of gas or the equivalent of about 40 miles of driving. So any time I have to drive more than 20 miles one way to a lake, it is now costing me more to drive than to launch. I have to weigh that cost against the fishery and make a decision. Is it worth it to me to drive 6 hours round trip and spend $100 in fuel to go fish KY lake? Not for me when I can catch plenty of bass (though certainly not as good as KY L.) for a lot less time and money. For others the answer will be different.

One other thing I've found myself doing is purchasing season passes on the lake I know I'll frequent most. This usually pays for itself after a matter of half a dozen trips. Not sure if Boggs offers a season entrance and launch pass, but if not it might be something you want to consider Mike. So each year I buy the State Park passes to fish (access and launch) at all those waters. Yes I could launch at "off" ramps and not pay, but break-ins and thefts make it well worth the money to launch and park inside well traveled ramps. Most other small lakes run between $35 and $75 dollars to get all the necessary passes. For instance at Waveland, I've already fished that lake enough this year to be at break even for the passes. Every trip for the rest of the year will just bring my average cost lower and lower. And yes, the fishing is that good out there. But if it ever starts sucking, I'll just look at other lakes in the area and maybe buy a different season pass. I try and go where the fish are to a certain degree.

So I don't have any illusions of catching 20 pound sacks here in Indiana like KVD whacked this weekend down on KY L. But I also choose not to move or spend the time and money driving there every weekend. So I make the best of what bassin' I've got close by, which ain't too shabby BTW, trying to keep costs and enjoyment factors within reason.

[MikeAxsom]

Mike: do you seriously believe that about the working man spending all that cash to chase the dream?

Yes, I do believe it. Obviously there is no single model for this sort fo thing, as people are individuals with a wide range of situations. But the manufacturers and wholesales who sell to the tournament industry spend a great deal of money to keep create that dream and keep it alive. Does anyone think Wal-Mart, Ranger, Mercury, etc., etc., would continue to spend the money they do for marketing if the only people in the ones winning and the ones who just fish for fun? Have you ever seen a marketing campaign from any of those companies that said "Odds are you'll never win big, so just have fun and don't ever spend more than you can afford."?

[cgable]

I have fished in Minnesota, Tennessee, Kentucky, Michigan and my home state of Indiana. I spend most of my "outdoors" money in Indiana but i don't really see any improvement to quality of my outdoor experience. I think i would probably rate Kentucky as 1 and Indiana dead last at 5!!!
Where have you been and where do you rate Indiana. 1 being BEST.

I have been trying to teach my daughter respect for our resources and everytime we stay in a camp ground or go to a lake we do some clean up. I may have just noticed it since I do these things anyway but on all the areas I have been lately, I have noticed signs saying "carry out your trash" ( Patoka Hardy Lakes ). I was even more frustrated when my daughter had went out in the Hardy Lake DNR area and picked up five bags of trash. 24.00 is starting to reach ridiculous for camping. I want to start buying property just outside the parks and build camp sites and charge 10.00! I have been blessed to fish 37 of the states. I actually only found one that seems as obsurd as Indiana in some ways. Utah is very constrictive with its state laws for bass fishing and tournaments. I did not like it very much and even the public areas were fenced off with permit only areas and the rest looked like a scene from a catfish paylake ( due to those blocked off areas leaving little area to fish). Texas allthough rather expensive is my the top on my list. I just love Sam Rayburn and Toledo Bend. Second to me is Tenneseewhich has the most diverse fishing I think for my bass fishing. Now Indiana has the highest cost to use the facilities but fishing in the southern portion is actually very good. Some of my favorite lakes in all the US are in Indiana. Patoka West Boggs Hardy Lake and Prides Creek ( a small litttle gem in Petersburg IN caught 58 bass on Memorial day) Maybe we should start banding together and lean on the politicians and if that does not work then we buy plots outside of the areas for camping. If 1000 guys go camping 4 times a year at 24.00 thats 96,000.00 I think I can build a camp ground with that money. and yes of coarse Im being radicle but I thinks its starting to push the envelope. Indiana right now for use cost is yes on the bottom of my list favorite places and I do not see much up keep for my dollar.

[cgable]

I can't help but be surprised at the number of times we see people complain about money when discussing fishing. After 36 years in this business it seems to me that this is one of the most unfounded complaints out there in the world of outdoor recreation. Nothing I know of offers the level and volume of entertainment for the money than does fishing. $14 per year for a license, a few bucks for bait and snacks, and as little or as much as we choose to spend on tackle and equipment, strikes me as a bargain.

It has long been my suspicion that some of the weeping and wailing we so often see in these boards may come from a subconscious reaction from a special segment of folks that bought into the idea that buying a bass boat, truck and $10K in tackle was going to be their ticket out of the boring day job and make them rich and famous like the guys on TV. When that does not happen and they find themselves struggling to make the $400 truck payment and the $700 boat payment while still working that day job, they become convinced that someone is plotting against them and keeping them from being happy like they intended to be. All of a sudden the guys with the big boats and dreams are the ones complaining about launch fees and the lack of that one big fish they know they would have caught if the stupid DNR would just produce it for them; while the folks fishing for fun with the kids are still happy.

What a pity that so many seem to have fallen into this trap.

MIke I think your on the left a little with your opinion. I know guys beat you up for cost at Boggs but you have a tremendous fishery I like the bang for my buck with the lake except maybe just a little more gravel grading in the ramp parking lot and a restroom that is accessible at the ramps( I think several times I have been there its been closed). The camp grounds are pretty nice too. Me and my daughter actually did a trash clean up at Boggs last year. Oh yeah one more thing I caught a 9 lb 3 oz LM at Boggs Last Spring. A dollar is a dollar to anyone so the idea that "tournament fisherman" are the only ones feeling the pinch and wanting to see what that dollar is spent on is not really a valid argument. To each his own. Ease up a little on us tourney guys. I get the idea that some can leave a bad taste in your mouth. But we are not all bad guys and yes there are some that actually become lucky enough to quit the day job and fish for a living put it is rare.