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  1. #1
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    Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    If you haven't read about it already I figured some of you all would like to read about this;

    Nothing projects U.S. global air and sea power more vividly than supercarriers. Bristling with fighter jets that can reach deep into even landlocked trouble zones, America's virtually invincible carrier fleet has long enforced its dominance of the high seas.

    China may soon put an end to that.

    U.S. naval planners are scrambling to deal with what analysts say is a game-changing weapon being developed by China — an unprecedented carrier-killing missile called the Dong Feng 21D that could be launched from land with enough accuracy to penetrate the defenses of even the most advanced moving aircraft carrier at a distance of more than 1,500 kilometers (900 miles).
    __

    EDITOR'S NOTE — The USS George Washington supercarrier recently deployed off North Korea in a high-profile show of U.S. sea power. AP Tokyo News Editor Eric Talmadge was aboard the carrier, and filed this report.

    ___
    Analysts say final testing of the missile could come as soon as the end of this year, though questions remain about how fast China will be able to perfect its accuracy to the level needed to threaten a moving carrier at sea.

    The weapon, a version of which was displayed last year in a Chinese military parade, could revolutionize China's role in the Pacific balance of power, seriously weakening Washington's ability to intervene in any potential conflict over Taiwan or North Korea. It could also deny U.S. ships safe access to international waters near China's 11,200-mile (18,000-kilometer) -long coastline.

    While a nuclear bomb could theoretically sink a carrier, assuming its user was willing to raise the stakes to atomic levels, the conventionally-armed Dong Feng 21D's uniqueness is in its ability to hit a powerfully defended moving target with pin-point precision.

    The Chinese Defense Ministry did not immediately respond to the AP's request for a comment.

    Funded by annual double-digit increases in the defense budget for almost every year of the past two decades, the Chinese navy has become Asia's largest and has expanded beyond its traditional mission of retaking Taiwan to push its sphere of influence deeper into the Pacific and protect vital maritime trade routes.

    "The Navy has long had to fear carrier-killing capabilities," said Patrick Cronin, senior director of the Asia-Pacific Security Program at the nonpartisan, Washington-based Center for a New American Security. "The emerging Chinese antiship missile capability, and in particular the DF 21D, represents the first post-Cold War capability that is both potentially capable of stopping our naval power projection and deliberately designed for that purpose."

    Setting the stage for a possible conflict, Beijing has grown increasingly vocal in its demands for the U.S. to stay away from the wide swaths of ocean — covering much of the Yellow, East and South China seas — where it claims exclusivity.

    It strongly opposed plans to hold U.S.-South Korean war games in the Yellow Sea off the northeastern Chinese coast, saying the participation of the USS George Washington supercarrier, with its 1,092-foot (333-meter) flight deck and 6,250 personnel, would be a provocation because it put Beijing within striking range of U.S. F-18 warplanes.

    The carrier instead took part in maneuvers held farther away in the Sea of Japan.

    U.S. officials deny Chinese pressure kept it away, and say they will not be told by Beijing where they can operate.

    "We reserve the right to exercise in international waters anywhere in the world," Rear Adm. Daniel Cloyd, who headed the U.S. side of the exercises, said aboard the carrier during the maneuvers, which ended last week.

    But the new missile, if able to evade the defenses of a carrier and of the vessels sailing with it, could undermine that policy.

    "China can reach out and hit the U.S. well before the U.S. can get close enough to the mainland to hit back," said Toshi Yoshihara, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College. He said U.S. ships have only twice been that vulnerable — against Japan in World War II and against Soviet bombers in the Cold War.

    Carrier-killing missiles "could have an enduring psychological effect on U.S. policymakers," he e-mailed to The AP. "It underscores more broadly that the U.S. Navy no longer rules the waves as it has since the end of World War II. The stark reality is that sea control cannot be taken for granted anymore."

    Yoshihara said the weapon is causing considerable consternation in Washington, though — with attention focused on land wars in Afghanistan and Iraq — its implications haven't been widely discussed in public.

    Analysts note that while much has been made of China's efforts to ready a carrier fleet of its own, it would likely take decades to catch U.S. carrier crews' level of expertise, training and experience.

    But Beijing does not need to match the U.S. carrier for carrier. The Dong Feng 21D, smarter, and vastly cheaper, could successfully attack a U.S. carrier, or at least deter it from getting too close.

    U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned of the threat in a speech last September at the Air Force Association Convention.

    "When considering the military-modernization programs of countries like China, we should be concerned less with their potential ability to challenge the U.S. symmetrically — fighter to fighter or ship to ship — and more with their ability to disrupt our freedom of movement and narrow our strategic options," he said.

    Gates said China's investments in cyber and anti-satellite warfare, anti-air and anti-ship weaponry, along with ballistic missiles, "could threaten America's primary way to project power" through its forward air bases and carrier strike groups.

    The Pentagon has been worried for years about China getting an anti-ship ballistic missile. The Pentagon considers such a missile an "anti-access," weapon, meaning that it could deny others access to certain areas.

    The Air Force's top surveillance and intelligence officer, Lt. Gen. David Deptula, told reporters this week that China's effort to increase anti-access capability is part of a worrisome trend.

    He did not single out the DF 21D, but said: "While we might not fight the Chinese, we may end up in situations where we'll certainly be opposing the equipment that they build and sell around the world."

    Questions remain over when — and if — China will perfect the technology; hitting a moving carrier is no mean feat, requiring state-of-the-art guidance systems, and some experts believe it will take China a decade or so to field a reliable threat. Others, however, say final tests of the missile could come in the next year or two.

    Former Navy commander James Kraska, a professor of international law and sea power at the U.S. Naval War College, recently wrote a controversial article in the magazine Orbis outlining a hypothetical scenario set just five years from now in which a Deng Feng 21D missile with a penetrator warhead sinks the USS George Washington.

    That would usher in a "new epoch of international order in which Beijing emerges to displace the United States."

    While China's Defense Ministry never comments on new weapons before they become operational, the DF 21D — which would travel at 10 times the speed of sound and carry conventional payloads — has been much discussed by military buffs online.

    A pseudonymous article posted on Xinhuanet, website of China's official news agency, imagines the U.S. dispatching the George Washington to aid Taiwan against a Chinese attack.

    The Chinese would respond with three salvos of DF 21D, the first of which would pierce the hull, start fires and shut down flight operations, the article says. The second would knock out its engines and be accompanied by air attacks. The third wave, the article says, would "send the George Washington to the bottom of the ocean."

    Comments on the article were mostly positive.

  2. #2
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubminnow View Post
    If you haven't read about it already I figured some of you all would like to read about this;

    Nothing projects U.S. global air and sea power more vividly than supercarriers. Bristling with fighter jets that can reach deep into even landlocked trouble zones, America's virtually invincible carrier fleet has long enforced its dominance of the high seas.

    China may soon put an end to that.

    U.S. naval planners are scrambling to deal with what analysts say is a game-changing weapon being developed by China — an unprecedented carrier-killing missile called the Dong Feng 21D that could be launched from land with enough accuracy to penetrate the defenses of even the most advanced moving aircraft carrier at a distance of more than 1,500 kilometers (900 miles).
    __

    EDITOR'S NOTE — The USS George Washington supercarrier recently deployed off North Korea in a high-profile show of U.S. sea power. AP Tokyo News Editor Eric Talmadge was aboard the carrier, and filed this report.

    ___
    Analysts say final testing of the missile could come as soon as the end of this year, though questions remain about how fast China will be able to perfect its accuracy to the level needed to threaten a moving carrier at sea.

    The weapon, a version of which was displayed last year in a Chinese military parade, could revolutionize China's role in the Pacific balance of power, seriously weakening Washington's ability to intervene in any potential conflict over Taiwan or North Korea. It could also deny U.S. ships safe access to international waters near China's 11,200-mile (18,000-kilometer) -long coastline.

    While a nuclear bomb could theoretically sink a carrier, assuming its user was willing to raise the stakes to atomic levels, the conventionally-armed Dong Feng 21D's uniqueness is in its ability to hit a powerfully defended moving target with pin-point precision.

    The Chinese Defense Ministry did not immediately respond to the AP's request for a comment.

    Funded by annual double-digit increases in the defense budget for almost every year of the past two decades, the Chinese navy has become Asia's largest and has expanded beyond its traditional mission of retaking Taiwan to push its sphere of influence deeper into the Pacific and protect vital maritime trade routes.

    "The Navy has long had to fear carrier-killing capabilities," said Patrick Cronin, senior director of the Asia-Pacific Security Program at the nonpartisan, Washington-based Center for a New American Security. "The emerging Chinese antiship missile capability, and in particular the DF 21D, represents the first post-Cold War capability that is both potentially capable of stopping our naval power projection and deliberately designed for that purpose."

    Setting the stage for a possible conflict, Beijing has grown increasingly vocal in its demands for the U.S. to stay away from the wide swaths of ocean — covering much of the Yellow, East and South China seas — where it claims exclusivity.

    It strongly opposed plans to hold U.S.-South Korean war games in the Yellow Sea off the northeastern Chinese coast, saying the participation of the USS George Washington supercarrier, with its 1,092-foot (333-meter) flight deck and 6,250 personnel, would be a provocation because it put Beijing within striking range of U.S. F-18 warplanes.

    The carrier instead took part in maneuvers held farther away in the Sea of Japan.

    U.S. officials deny Chinese pressure kept it away, and say they will not be told by Beijing where they can operate.

    "We reserve the right to exercise in international waters anywhere in the world," Rear Adm. Daniel Cloyd, who headed the U.S. side of the exercises, said aboard the carrier during the maneuvers, which ended last week.

    But the new missile, if able to evade the defenses of a carrier and of the vessels sailing with it, could undermine that policy.

    "China can reach out and hit the U.S. well before the U.S. can get close enough to the mainland to hit back," said Toshi Yoshihara, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College. He said U.S. ships have only twice been that vulnerable — against Japan in World War II and against Soviet bombers in the Cold War.

    Carrier-killing missiles "could have an enduring psychological effect on U.S. policymakers," he e-mailed to The AP. "It underscores more broadly that the U.S. Navy no longer rules the waves as it has since the end of World War II. The stark reality is that sea control cannot be taken for granted anymore."

    Yoshihara said the weapon is causing considerable consternation in Washington, though — with attention focused on land wars in Afghanistan and Iraq — its implications haven't been widely discussed in public.

    Analysts note that while much has been made of China's efforts to ready a carrier fleet of its own, it would likely take decades to catch U.S. carrier crews' level of expertise, training and experience.

    But Beijing does not need to match the U.S. carrier for carrier. The Dong Feng 21D, smarter, and vastly cheaper, could successfully attack a U.S. carrier, or at least deter it from getting too close.

    U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned of the threat in a speech last September at the Air Force Association Convention.

    "When considering the military-modernization programs of countries like China, we should be concerned less with their potential ability to challenge the U.S. symmetrically — fighter to fighter or ship to ship — and more with their ability to disrupt our freedom of movement and narrow our strategic options," he said.

    Gates said China's investments in cyber and anti-satellite warfare, anti-air and anti-ship weaponry, along with ballistic missiles, "could threaten America's primary way to project power" through its forward air bases and carrier strike groups.

    The Pentagon has been worried for years about China getting an anti-ship ballistic missile. The Pentagon considers such a missile an "anti-access," weapon, meaning that it could deny others access to certain areas.

    The Air Force's top surveillance and intelligence officer, Lt. Gen. David Deptula, told reporters this week that China's effort to increase anti-access capability is part of a worrisome trend.

    He did not single out the DF 21D, but said: "While we might not fight the Chinese, we may end up in situations where we'll certainly be opposing the equipment that they build and sell around the world."

    Questions remain over when — and if — China will perfect the technology; hitting a moving carrier is no mean feat, requiring state-of-the-art guidance systems, and some experts believe it will take China a decade or so to field a reliable threat. Others, however, say final tests of the missile could come in the next year or two.

    Former Navy commander James Kraska, a professor of international law and sea power at the U.S. Naval War College, recently wrote a controversial article in the magazine Orbis outlining a hypothetical scenario set just five years from now in which a Deng Feng 21D missile with a penetrator warhead sinks the USS George Washington.

    That would usher in a "new epoch of international order in which Beijing emerges to displace the United States."

    While China's Defense Ministry never comments on new weapons before they become operational, the DF 21D — which would travel at 10 times the speed of sound and carry conventional payloads — has been much discussed by military buffs online.

    A pseudonymous article posted on Xinhuanet, website of China's official news agency, imagines the U.S. dispatching the George Washington to aid Taiwan against a Chinese attack.

    The Chinese would respond with three salvos of DF 21D, the first of which would pierce the hull, start fires and shut down flight operations, the article says. The second would knock out its engines and be accompanied by air attacks. The third wave, the article says, would "send the George Washington to the bottom of the ocean."

    Comments on the article were mostly positive.

    This is nothing new...we saw it coming....yet we will take note. If we went to war with China today...the air and sea battles would be over in about three days, experts say....Of course taking into account that we went into it with a win win attitude; no half messures...no pin pricks!!! We would only have to use two of our Ohio Class (SSBN's) to crush their navy to shreds (we have 18 in opperation today). We have a torpedo that has all our cold war enemies shaking thier heads (it's been keeping the peace for years)...this torpedo can accuritly hit targets 70 miles away...no other country can even come close to that...the MK48 torpedo; it's a nasty wepon...it doesn't miss, carries a small nuke that will sink any ship right now. Oddly enough...the weapon we worrie the most with the red army, is fleet of old diesel subs...the can lay on the bottom with no noise, and can bush wack passing subs / ships. But most of them won't even survive the first day. Most don't know this...but we do have a "star war" technologoies that are just unreal; lasers that can be fired from space...that can hit moving targets...missles...jets, with over 80% kill ratios. The only way we would fire on China...is if they attack Tiawan...And it would be a sea and air defense that would be over quick. If china ....or any other county for that matter, fired a missle in hopes to sink one of our flat decks...it would be the same if they attacked New York. They would lose everything they had...or ever hope to have;...of couse all the leaders in that county would be out of a job. So the meassage is here....DON'T TREAD ON US...and be darn sure when you fire that missle at the George Washington....you better buckle up.

  3. #3
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    I agree with you that we can still take anyone on the planet. What bothers me is our leaders giving(or selling) our technology to our enemies. When Ragan told the ruskies that he would share our star wars tech. with them I remember thinking what in the world are you doing. Well we all know how that turned out. When Bill Clinton gave(or sold, all you have to do is put money in and the doors open up)our missile tech. to the Chinese, I said what in the world are you doing. Of course we still don't know the out come of that one. China is on the verge of being the most powerful country on the face of the earth having ownership over our debt and having the largest military on earth. Combine that with advanced tech. and we are in trouble. I will never forget the film I saw of actual war games by the Chinese where they set off a nuke in the background and then the military rode horses with face masks right toward it. They mean business.

    Another thing that bothers me is our country cancelling advanced fighters. We have sold our planes to many countries so the only way to remain the strongest fighting military in the world is to stay ahead of everyone else that uses our old tech. What was one of the first things B.O. did when he took office, it was to eliminate one of our best future fighters. I don't get it.

  4. #4
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    The Chinese will not attack us without long pause for thought. Why? over half of their economy depends on us buying their junk... we stop buying, they have no money to buy a pack of gun much less build missiles... i would worry more about them selling the missile to North Korea... im just saying

  5. #5
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    Quote Originally Posted by walkeraviator View Post
    The Chinese will not attack us without long pause for thought. Why? over half of their economy depends on us buying their junk... we stop buying, they have no money to buy a pack of gun much less build missiles... i would worry more about them selling the missile to North Korea... im just saying
    What you wrote makes sense...I guess I just don't like the idea of them having a stronger arm than us in an arm wrestling match. I don't like the idea of them being able to hold anything over on us so to speak.

  6. #6
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    Better worry more about all the ICBM's and Backfire bombers they acquired at the fall of the U.S.S.R.....actually they don't have to attack us now..they just have to call the notes due from the money we borrowed...why do you think the U.S.S.R. went down...they went broke trying to keep up with the Reagan arms race...we would have too except we had a better line of credit than they did.

  7. #7
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveStewart View Post
    Better worry more about all the ICBM's and Backfire bombers they acquired at the fall of the U.S.S.R.....actually they don't have to attack us now..they just have to call the notes due from the money we borrowed...why do you think the U.S.S.R. went down...they went broke trying to keep up with the Reagan arms race...we would have too except we had a better line of credit than they did.
    Dave, you are a WISE man, my friend........there are serious parallels with the USSR and their economic downfall and what is starting to happen with us.

    I still think our economy is significantly stronger than the USSR's was, but it is still very scary.

    AND yea, those Backfire bombers really SCARE the crap out of me, but I believe we could pick EVERY one of them out of the sky if it came down to that.

    Later,

    Geo

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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    From what I can tell teh TU-22 was never actually sold to Korea or China... The only ones not in service with the Russian Air Force were left in USSR territories during their breakup. Balarus is one country listed as having one... to be honest... not that intimidating of an airplane... has teh radar cross signature of a stadium... Patriots travel fast enough to take one down easy... ICBMs are a serious threat... their air force is not...

  9. #9
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    They dont need a missle! If they kept all their5 cargo carriers in port for two monthsm this country would go under.Imagine,every walnart store closed, dollar general with nothing to sell, and american companys with plants there, broke.We gave our country away long ago. When OUR defense contractorsm have top secret technology, built over there, we lost.

  10. #10
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    Just read today where China just passed Japans economy during the second quarter 2010...China's economy is second largest only to the United States...economists are guestimating China's economy, if it stays on the same trend that it has been, could pass up the United States economy in as little as twenty years.

  11. #11
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    I am not a tree hugger but I know with out any type of EPA they are doing what we did during our industrial revolution. Pollution will and has caught up with them and will get worse. I've seen pic's of dust storms overthere not to mention in the cities everyone wearing mask....Sorry to get off subject.

  12. #12
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    Re: Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubminnow View Post
    Just read today where China just passed Japans economy during the second quarter 2010...China's economy is second largest only to the United States...economists are guestimating China's economy, if it stays on the same trend that it has been, could pass up the United States economy in as little as twenty years.
    GREAT! Does that mean when we have hurricanes, tornadoes, and floods, they will send us economic aid and disaster assistance. If so, good, long over due.

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