Gun Control Debate in wake of AZ shooting

[walkeraviator]

So lets hear your guys opinions on both sides. I know a majority of us are pro gun people, but there has to be at least a few who support gun control in some way or another.

Here is my belief. Concealed carry should be allowed to anyone who is willing to take the required training. And I dont mean the 8 hour state course that talks about laws and lets you shoot 20 rounds at a paper target 7 yrds away. You need proper training that teaches situational awareness, decision making process, how to use cover and concealment, how to move as you fire, and being aware of who you are shooting and what may be behind or in front of your target.

A good training source is ICE training owned and operated by Rob Pincus. His course called Combat Focus Training is geared toward teh self defense shooter. Yes it is expensive, but if you can afford a firearm for self defense, you should be able to afford a class that helps make your life safer without endangering other lives.

Remember that carrying a concealed firearms is not so that you can be a hero. It is to protect you and your family or friends. If I am in a grocery store and i hear gunfire outside, i find my family and help move them AWAY from danger, I dont go running outside looking for a gunman. In Kentucky, laws are written with this in mind. Justifiable Homicide is based on "percieved" threat when defending your own person. But when defending teh life of a thrid person it is "actual" threat. In the concealed carry classes it is a common example of the instructors to tell about the undercover cop scenario...

You walk into an alley to see a biker standing over an old woman pointing a gun at her. You shoot the biker to find out he was an undercover cop who just busted a wanted felon and you killed a cop. You go to jail for a long time if his cop buddies dont just off you.

Just know that owning a handgun is a HUGE responsibility not to be taken lightly, but is a right guaranteed by constitution.

[GeoFisher]

I'm a HUGE defender of our right to bear arms. BUT, we need to do a better job of keeping folks like the AZ shooter from getting guns. I'm not sure we could have ever prevented this, but it does seem like there were enough warning signs to keep him from legally purchasing a weapon. I don't know.

Later,

Geo

[dangerousdave]

I believe in gun control, thats why I always use two hands while shooting. Dave

[fishin350]

We have enough laws. Just inforce the ones we all ready have.

[stratosjoe]

I remember a situation in central Illinois where a guy was in an argument with his wife right outside the court room. They had just went thru a nasty divorce and the judge had made a ruling in regards to custody of the children. The fight was verbal at first until he breaks out a gun shoots misses her with the first shot a guy standing close knocked the gun from his hand then proceeded to work the guy over. Another bystander unaware of who ,what ,when or where yanks the hero off the husband and proceeds to work him over . Mean while the husband gets the gun and wastes the wife. Thank goodness the 2nd bystander was not armed. Maybe a class would have given him the cause to pause but I'm not sure. I am a strong opponent to gun control but man there are some people out there that don't need a ball bat in there hands let alone a gun. I don't know if we will ever come to terms on this subject. This last sad episode probably could not have been stopped. NOT being political on this I really feel the hit list for congressman was uncalled for with the crosshairs. What was anyone thinking when that was put out to the public every person that saw that knew it was in jest, its like sarcazim on a post some people just don't get it.

[MrSplitshot]

I agree that there are some people who just flat out don't need guns in their hands...the hard part in gun control is the state figuring out just which people those are. Criminals are easy, relatively speaking, to rule out as legal gun owners....but that doesn't stop them from getting guns.

I also agree that the only thing worse than having no gun to defend yourself is having a gun, and not having a clue what to do with it. You endanger yourself and others. Training for legal concealed carry should be required, as it is....but personally, I think the training is a little too easy. I had a great instructor and enjoyed my class a lot, but there are two parts to the deal....being proficient with the weapon in a defense situation is one, but identifying situations quickly and knowing how to react is HUGE. Choosing to carry a weapon is a HUGE responsibility.

It's tough for me, because I wouldn't want to make it harder for the GOOD GUYS to get guns...but I also don't necessarily want guns in the hands of untrained people...at least not for concealed carry. Essentially, getting a concealed carry permit now is no different than getting a drivers license....take a written test, pass a field exam, get your license. (As long as background check is okay.) I might make the curriculum required a little more in-depth, even if it takes longer. Also, most of us learn be repetition...aka, someone beating it into our brain over and over again. Make "continuous learning" courses a requirement...maybe something annual or every now and again. My wife has to take continuous training hours in the medical profession so that she is always sharp, knows the latest stuff, and doesn't kill somebody for lack of training. If you are serious about being a responsible carrier of a weapon in public, this requirement shouldn't bother you. If you are not serious or willing to give it the effort to stay sharp, than frankly, I'm not sure I want you carrying anyway.

For everyday control of who can buy guns, I am a firm firm believer in the FACT that guns do not kill people. Keep the age requirements as is, mandatory background checks to rule out the recorded criminals...but I just don't know how to keep a nutjob with a clean criminal history from being able to go into Wal-Mart and buy a Shotgun. The criminals are going to buy them on the street anyway, so again, what's it matter?

The only thing I am certain of is that outlawing guns, even if it's just in a particular city, is the ABSOLUTE WRONG THING TO DO. Criminals will get the weapons regardless, because they already have a total lack of respect for the law. (Using my best Jackie Gleason voice there, in case you didn't hear it.) Do not prevent a legal American, on American soil, who has a clean background and sane mind from obtaining a weapon. NEVER. It is a fundamental right, regardless of geography. If they want to carry it in public, then make them undergo a licensing procedure...whether it is concealed or open carry, in my opinion. I do not agree with it being "OK" for a guy to wear a 44 Magnum on his hip in plain view legally without a permit, but illegal for me to put a .32 in my back pocket without a permit. Both people have the same responsibility in training and proficiency to uphold, in my opinion. If anything, the guy with the hogleg on his hip in plain view does nothing but make folks who don't know anything about guns uncomfortable.

Again, the hard part is determining which buffalo in the herd isn't fit to have a gun...from a mental standpoint. That's just dang near uncrackable in a realistic method.

I agree with walkeraviator (he knows his stuff) about perceived threat on your own person versus actual threat on a third person...though I struggle with that one some. I'm going to avoid a threat if at all possible, and only draw that weapon if the threat on me or immediate family is clear, present, and imminent. IE: Someone has gun in hand and is gunning for me with it. However, I think about this grocery store in AZ. If I'm in the crowd listening to the speech and this nutjob comes in firing at the crowd - I'm in the crowd. It would be hard for me, in that situation, to not pull my pistol and take action to stop him. The threat is pretty clear in this case. All it takes is 1 legally armed citizen in that grocery store, and a death toll of 6 could have been lowered to 1,2,3...who knows...but the threat could have been neutralized quicker. Not to be a hero, but to protect my own life, and the life of the others in that crowd with me, when the whackjob starts firing at us. I think human nature in that case is to get out, find cover, get away...and I'm sure everyone immediately attempted that...but some did not succeed. I'm pretty sure that I would be returning fire, if able. Different story if I'm outside, he's inside....or vice versa. I'm not going to look for the threat or play policeman.

I'm surprised, in a state like AZ, that somebody in that crowd wasn't carrying a weapon...if it was a republican speaking, it would have probably been different. Not playing politics, just being realistic...probably more card carrying Pubs than Dems.

[DJD]

I agree with all that has been said on this so I won't repeat their points.
I will add that I bet a huge percentage of the folks that went through the CCDW class are not avid shooters and that alone can be a problem.

I have spend alot of money shooting my pistols, rifles and shotguns through the years and do a pretty good job with all of them. I guess all I'm saying is that getting used to your weapon of choice is very important.

Oh one more thing if your not in the NRA sign up! They fight for your rights all the time and your subscription helps fund them.

[kydonky]

What disturbs me the most is that with all the issues/problems we are facing in Ky and the US we waste all this time with gun control issues, like this is what we need to solve problems in KY.

Its just sad that there are so many people that don't feel safe unless they have a 357 packed under there coat. Is this really the kind of community we want to live in?

I have guns, got a snub nose 38, 9mm, 30-30 and a 22 mag. I am not to the point I feel I need to pack one of them before I leave the house.

I don't think the concealled and carry law should be open for anyone to pack a gun any time any place concealed without so much as them knowing even how to put the safety on or off.

If this goes through then maybe I better start packing mine. What's next, gang vs gang??

Think you are insecure now? Wait untill every drunken idiot just finishing a 12 pack and a pint is out crusing around with a 44 mag in his belt as well. That's reall y going to make me feel better.

It would be to much gun control to even state in the law that you should not carry a concealed firearm if you are intoxicated. The proposal is for absolutely unrestricted right to carry concealed firearms.

So lets concentrate all the effort in this proposal to carry concealled weapons without any trainning, certification or background check. Put off the state medicaid program problems, failing KY schools, poverty in eastern KY, unemployment issues, failing infastructure, lost manufactoring jobs and every thing else so we can concentrate on packing heat.

By the way did you all know the term redneck originated as the nickname for union coal miners in KY and WVA. So the rednecks were union members and supporters that fought for union rights.

[kygorski]

This one is sticky. We all agree convicted felons should be banned from owning them, but they get anyhow. Mentaly disturbed should be banned, but who is mentaly disturbed? There will be gun deaths people have been killing each other forever, with rocks, clubs, knives, poison and by hand,and hand guns whether legal or not will be with us forever also. I think any legal person has the right to buy and carry a weapon.And when we mandate tr5aining, we are attacking that right. A person who takes a course and fails will still be legal.

[DJD]

What disturbs me the most is that with all the issues/problems we are facing in Ky and the US we waste all this time with gun control issues, like this is what we need to solve problems in KY.

Its just sad that there are so many people that don't feel safe unless they have a 357 packed under there coat. Is this really the kind of community we want to live in?

I have guns, got a snub nose 38, 9mm, 30-30 and a 22 mag. I am not to the point I feel I need to pack one of them before I leave the house.

I don't think the concealled and carry law should be open for anyone to pack a gun any time any place concealed without so much as them knowing even how to put the safety on or off.

If this goes through then maybe I better start packing mine. What's next, gang vs gang??

Think you are insecure now? Wait untill every drunken idiot just finishing a 12 pack and a pint is out crusing around with a 44 mag in his belt as well. That's reall y going to make me feel better.

It would be to much gun control to even state in the law that you should not carry a concealed firearm if you are intoxicated. The proposal is for absolutely unrestricted right to carry concealed firearms.

So lets concentrate all the effort in this proposal to carry concealled weapons without any trainning, certification or background check. Put off the state medicaid program problems, failing KY schools, poverty in eastern KY, unemployment issues, failing infastructure, lost manufactoring jobs and every thing else so we can concentrate on packing heat.

By the way did you all know the term redneck originated as the nickname for union coal miners in KY and WVA. So the rednecks were union members and supporters that fought for union rights.

Don you know as americans we have short memories so the hot topic is whats in the news at the time. Thats just how it is but along that line of thinking I wish we (Congress) would do just what you said. How long and how many politicians have said illegal immigration was gonna be controlled? Alternative energy addresed? Gubment spending controlled and on and on....

I can say your comment of feeling the need to "pack heat" is how alot of communities are already. I don't live in that area and few on here do but it does exist so that ship has already sailed brother.

What proposal are you talking about? You mean this thread? Did I miss something??

[walkeraviator]

How is mandating training attacking someones rights? They still get to carry, they just have to do so responsibly.

IN response to kydonky, I agree with the law that restricts carriage of a handgun after consuming alcohol. Currently in Ky there is no law that restricts you from drinking and carrying. But amongst the firearm community it is believed that doing so sets yourself up for disaster. So we mostly choose not to drink while we carry.

As for everyone being paranoid or insecure as you stated in your post, thats just not the case for most that carry. We simply believe that a 1:1,000,000,000 chance that something bad might happen is enough reason to arm ourselves. I am asked all the time.."why do you carry a gun?" My response is that a gun is lighter than carrying a cop around all the time.

As for open carry guys, they should be the least of your worries. Those guys are usually enthusiasts who have gotten proper training voluntarily because they enjoy the training.

Lastly, I am going to recommend a website for those of you interested in knowing more than just what your CCDW instructor taught you. It is a forum full of great guys just like this one who have great debates and share amazing knowledge. www.downrange.tv It is a website connected to a series of shows that airs on Outdoor Channel on Wednesdays. The show that I sugest you watch if you can catch episodes is The Best Defense. It will point you in teh right direction when it comes to self defense knowledge. It is by no means a substitute for hands on range time, but is better than nothing.

If you wish to seek training in the state of Kentucky, check some of these places out...

http://www.threatsolutions.biz/index.html - Cave City

http://kyfirearmstraining.com/kentuc...arms-training/ - Louisville

http://www.defensivehandguntraining.com/ - Northern Ky
http://www.adamsfirearmstraining.com/ - Northern Ky


If you have the financial means to leave the state for good training...
www.gunsite.com
www.tacproshootingcenter.com
www.icetraining.us
www.highcaltraining.com

[DJD]

Great info Walker! I checked some of those sites and will return when some of the course schedules are posted for this year.