immigration bill or bull

This is a tar babby if there ever was one.I'm a third generation american,my grand parents entered from ellis island.Neither of them were ever american cituzens, but had legal visas, that they needed to renewquite often. The children learned, spoke, and were in the service or aiding the war effort in WW11. Legal aliens can become american citizens or not, as long as they follow the laws they are welcome. BUT illegal is just that! But its a crime on both sides of the coin. the ones who knowingly hire them, are criminals also. So who does the time for the crime?Its not only hispanics, there are oriental and african illegals, but one thing is clear, they are hired illegally.My solution. throw em all out, let them apply for visas, and use the tried and proven legal method. Two wrongs dont make a right.

[QUOTE=kygorski;513003]This is a tar babby if there ever was one.I'm a third generation american,my grand parents entered from ellis island.Neither of them were ever american cituzens, but had legal visas, that they needed to renewquite often. The children learned, spoke, and were in the service or aiding the war effort in WW11. Legal aliens can become american citizens or not, as long as they follow the laws they are welcome. BUT illegal is just that! But its a crime on both sides of the coin. the ones who knowingly hire them, are criminals also. So who does the time for the crime?Its not only hispanics, there are oriental and african illegals, but one thing is clear, they are hired illegally.My solution. throw em all out, let them apply for visas, and use the tried and proven legal method. Two wrongs dont make a right.[/QUOTE]
--
Spot on..... We have an illegal alien (mostly mexican it seem ) problem that would not be nearly as bad if good upstanding citizens wouldn't hire them just because they will work 20 or 30 percent cheaper than folks here who do not live 10 or 15 in a 5 person trailer... Everybody screams about illegals but when they are pointing their finger it seems there are three of their fingers pointing back.... Maybe locking up a few business owners who hire illegals might be in order, after all, receiving stolen property is actually a crime the same as stealing it is....wait...those are not crimes that the upper crust commits such as hiring illegals is it, we can't be holding our fine upstanding citizens responsible for crimes they commit now can we.

We all know who's hiring these guys. Good God fearing christians who need cheap labor to make a profit, and then go to the "gubment" with the hands out for subsidies.But will they ever be arrested and charged? nada!

Tax lawyers. Just on general principal. lets lock up about 20%, they invent the dodges and loop holes that aid and abet this crap.Interesting show on PBR last week about the "independant contractor ". Constructions owners in many cases dont hire employees, they hire a contractor, set a price, and its legal. The individual is then obligated to pay social security, income tax and what benefits to see fit to pay themselves.Lawyers thought that scheme up, sold it to legislators, and screwed tax payers. I heard, but cant prove, that certain agriculture advocates use the dodge about facilitators, guys who attest to he legality of migrant workers, so that the user isn't bothered by back ground checks, they leave that up to the agent they use. BS

Folks can rant and rave about welfare losers and the like but personally I believe most of our economic problems are created by upper crust in this country in their attempts increase personal wealth/profit and before somebody jumps down my throat, I have no problem with businesses making higher profits as long as they are not breaking the laws in that attempt but it does bother me when businesses do such things as hire two part time employees instead of one full time in order to get around the requirement of benefits... I guess all is fair in the business world as long someone else is doing the bleeding and not you and whatever you can do to get around legal issues is ok, you can go to church on sunday and rant to your neighbor about somebody else causing all the problems....

[QUOTE=Hlleonard;513022]Folks can rant and rave about welfare losers and the like but personally I believe most of our economic problems are created by upper crust in this country in their attempts increase personal wealth/profit and before somebody jumps down my throat, I have no problem with businesses making higher profits as long as they are not breaking the laws in that attempt but it does bother me when businesses do such things as hire two part time employees instead of one full time in order to get around the requirement of benefits... I guess all is fair in the business world as long someone else is doing the bleeding and not you and whatever you can do to get around legal issues is ok, you can go to church on sunday and rant to your neighbor about somebody else causing all the problems....[/QUOTE]

WOW.

But don't you see the irony in what you're saying.......

You have no problem with making money, and you don't blame welfare so much, you blame the GREEDY ******** on top......fine great.

You then go on to bitch and rail about joe company hiring two part time workers to circumvent legislation that is FORCING them to do this, or go out of business????

I don't get it......Laws created that inherently LIMIT production are bad for all of us. By creating silly ass laws requiring benefits, our government has effectively mandated part time workers........

Next, we will have a law that you cannot hire part time workers.

These types of laws do nothing but impede growth.

Later,

Geo

There is a difference.

[QUOTE=GeoFisher;513023]WOW.

But don't you see the irony in what you're saying.......

You have no problem with making money, and you don't blame welfare so much, you blame the GREEDY ******** on top......fine great.

You then go on to bitch and rail about joe company hiring two part time workers to circumvent legislation that is FORCING them to do this, or go out of business????

I don't get it......Laws created that inherently LIMIT production are bad for all of us. By creating silly ass laws requiring benefits, our government has effectively mandated part time workers........

Next, we will have a law that you cannot hire part time workers.

These types of laws do nothing but impede growth.

Later,

Geo[/QUOTE]
--
The only thing that is forcing companies to hire two part time workers instead of one full time worker is the bottom line... Is it just me or does anybody else believe the lower wages and benefits are pushed the worse our economy and our debt is going to get, if folks can't make a wage that allows him/her to buy their own food, provide healthcare, provide housing for their family the more government help these folks will need and the less taxes they will pay... Folks who work for a living should not have to rely on food stamps and the like to provide for his/her family but as long as the work force has to deal with low wages and no healthcare benefits the worse our economy will get.... The rich will continue to see more gold in their jewelry boxes but the economy will continue to suffer.

[QUOTE=Hlleonard;513029]--
The only thing that is forcing companies to hire two part time workers instead of one full time worker is the bottom line... Is it just me or does anybody else believe the lower wages and benefits are pushed the worse our economy and our debt is going to get, if folks can't make a wage that allows him/her to buy their own food, provide healthcare, provide housing for their family the more government help these folks will need and the less taxes they will pay... Folks who work for a living should not have to rely on food stamps and the like to provide for his/her family but as long as the work force has to deal with low wages and no healthcare benefits the worse our economy will get.... The rich will continue to see more gold in their jewelry boxes but the economy will continue to suffer.[/QUOTE]

Man you STILL miss the point.

If you force a business to PAY upwards of 12,000 a year for health care. HOW the hell do you expect them to stay in business. If they can barely pay minimum wage, how do you EXPECT them to pay this ****...........HOW.

Businesses will FAIL and go out of business when this UN AMERICAN garbage is finalized and passed.

You need to take a simple class in economics..........and then you need to evaluate just WHO provides jobs in this country....when done with that evaluation, you might get it. Small businesses provide 80% of the jobs in this country. NOT the multi mega wal-marts of the world. The companies that provide those 80% of jobs are pretty healthy, but no where near health enough to take on an additional 12k a year.

Finally, I use the 12k number, because that is the estimated cost of the CHEAPEST Obamacare Bronze level product.


Wake UP.

Sounds like a true believer there. Good luck there. Works for you fine! But I dont care to follow an agnostics beliefs.

[QUOTE=GeoFisher;513040]Man you STILL miss the point.

If you force a business to PAY upwards of 12,000 a year for health care. HOW the hell do you expect them to stay in business. If they can barely pay minimum wage, how do you EXPECT them to pay this ****...........HOW.

Businesses will FAIL and go out of business when this UN AMERICAN garbage is finalized and passed.

You need to take a simple class in economics..........and then you need to evaluate just WHO provides jobs in this country....when done with that evaluation, you might get it. Small businesses provide 80% of the jobs in this country. NOT the multi mega wal-marts of the world. The companies that provide those 80% of jobs are pretty healthy, but no where near health enough to take on an additional 12k a year.

Finally, I use the 12k number, because that is the estimated cost of the CHEAPEST Obamacare Bronze level product.


Wake UP.[/QUOTE]
--
Mr Fisher, I know you and most other conservatives believe what you are saying... It doesn't make any difference how many low paying jobs are created, they do nothing to aid the economy, folks in low paying jobs pay little to no income tax and need more federal aid.... As long as middle class jobs keep shrinking, and I assume they still are, we will continue to go downhill... A 10 dollar an hour job does not keep a family off food stamps.... I have agreed numerous times with folks like yourself that I believe obamacare is going to hurt us more than help us but every conservative throws everybody with a differing point of views in the same sack and assumes we think nobody should earn their living , that is simply false, My opinion is and has been that folks should earn their living if they are able to do so but in the present economy doing that and not needing government assistance is next to impossible in the type of jobs we seem to have an abundance of... Until we can start seeing better paychecks we will not see people needing less assistance... We need to get illegals out of the work force which it seems even you believe or I think you do anyway.... What that means is a better job market which means a better paycheck, if you don't think we need better paychecks why do you believe we need to do something about illegals, if we get rid of the illegals then the cost of doing business will go up and the businesses you advocate will go under... Maybe we would be better off if there were more walmarts other than more small businesses.... Personally I don't believe all small businesses would go under, maybe there are too many small businesses mowing yards, there will be just as many yards to mow regardless of how many businesses are mowing them, fewer small businesses might mean more work for the ones that are left and maybe a better paycheck, more money to spend makes a better economy.

RE: Part time vs full time vs benefits. In the instance, the potential employee has the opportunity to accept of deny the employment. When you accept the job you accept the terms of employment. Many part time folks accepting such positions do so to demonstrate their abilitites and be further considered for benefits. By definition, a benefit is extra employee compensation: compensation over and above salary given to some employees. Benefits are earned, not given. THEY ARE NOT ENTITLEMENTS!

Some part timers only want or only are available to work part time....i.e. they have other sources of employment they are supplementing, or just want time to go fishing.

RE: Moral vs Legal: I refer you to this link for a deeper understanding. [url]http://users.ox.ac.uk/~lawf0081/pdfs/lawmoralityedited.pdf[/url]

I support the current bill as I understand it. It seeks to punish businesses that hire undocumented immigrants. And it seeks greater immigration enforcement, requiring those now here illegally to either be deported immediately, or forced thru the process to be come legal. (including learning English, taking citizens ship classes, registering with Social Security, and paying taxes to include all fines, penalties, and taxes on all previously earned and not reported income) I agree, that will incur govt expense, but the govt will gain back more taxes payers and more tax dollars.

Will any of this be fool proof? No. Is it a step in the right direction by holding immigrants and employers to task? I think yes. Does this bill also include more assets to tighten our borders? Yes!

Business has a law abiding right to make profits. Business that does not abide law is simply criminal. Criminals need to get the fully benefit of our legal system their tax dollars have entitiled them to.

JMHO....if you own a business and are willing to break laws to make profit, then I as a customer don't feel safe doing business with you. And on a personal note, I don't mind at all dropping a dime on you, no matter how big you think your businesss is. If your business can't follow the law and make a profitt, blame your buisness model, your accountant, or your salary Mr Business owner.