Bush’s approval hits new low: 23 percent.»

[QUOTE=Stonewall2002;331451]And yes…. I have more faith in Businesses than I do in the government. The Market is not subject to the whims of voters who are bribed every two years with others money confiscated by the tax collector. Sorry….[/QUOTE]

No, but the market is subject to the whims of CEOs who are motivated by incentive clauses in their contracts and pressured by stockholders. And there are plenty who would, in a heartbeat, knowingly release an unsafe product if it meant a sudden uptick in sagging sales.

Government does have a watchdog role, and there should be a healthy tension between unfettered capitalism and the government's duty to protect the public.

The ironic thing about this discussion is that while we're talking about the merits of government versus corporations, we're forgetting that today democracy is dead, and we live in what is essentially a corpocracy. CEOs collect politicians the way you and I collect baseball cards.

Corporations write our laws. They have a gazillion times more influence on our government than "voters who are bribed every two years", because they put up their own bribe money into the election kitty.

AMEN JCB. Thanks.

[QUOTE=jcb;331519]No, but the market is subject to the whims of CEOs who are motivated by incentive clauses in their contracts and pressured by stockholders. And there are plenty who would, in a heartbeat, knowingly release an unsafe product if it meant a sudden uptick in sagging sales.

Government does have a watchdog role, and there should be a healthy tension between unfettered capitalism and the government's duty to protect the public.

The ironic thing about this discussion is that while we're talking about the merits of government versus corporations, we're forgetting that today democracy is dead, and we live in what is essentially a corpocracy. CEOs collect politicians the way you and I collect baseball cards.

Corporations write our laws. They have a gazillion times more influence on our government than "voters who are bribed every two years", because they put up their own bribe money into the election kitty.[/QUOTE]

Wow... you undermine your point in the first statement and then go on to restate your faulty argument in next breath. Quite a feet of "verbal gymnastics", if you will.

First let me say that the structure of the modern business model is the epitome of democracy. An investor votes in favor of the viability of a corporation by investing in that business and then holds the business managers responsible by demanding that that business shows a return on than investment. If not the manager is removed by a vote of the shareholders. True, some CEOs get huge settlements when they are removed (the "golden parachute"), but is that not the right of those managers to negotiate such settlements prior to accepting the position? Did the shareholders not agree to such stipulations before approving the contract?

As for your statement that "democracy is dead".... that is farther from the truth than at almost any time in history. Democracy is spreading across the globe. Lets see... Iraq is now a democratic state (not perfect but more so than in the recent past), the same with Afghanistan, Lebanon, and while Russia is not completely democratic it is a far cry from the totalitarian state that existed under the Soviet Union. Also look at all of the former Eastern Bloc nations, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, the Ukraine, and many more. Democracy is not dead, its just that your idea of democracy is dead in your eyes.... sadly that utopian vision has never existed, and hopefully never will. Total 100% participation in the democratic process is a horrible prospect because of the millions of uninformed, uneducated voters who are easily swayed by a few smooth words and snazzy marketing. I point to our friend B. Obama as an example. He says nothing allowing people to project their "hopes" upon him allowing him to be everything to everyone. What exactly will he do to initiate this change is anybody guess and the fears of many.

Strange you say that corporations bribe the politicians and point the finger of condemnation squarely at the business who support legislation favorable to their chosen business. Strange..... actual bribery of a sitting or prospective politician for favors is a crime while it is totally lawful, almost encouraged, for politicians to bribe their constituency to vote for them in exchange for others tax dollars? If any CEO were to offer their own money, let alone moneys confiscated from others, in exchange for a political favor they would find themselves in jail. Is not the politician the corrupt one for dolling out others money or for accepting money in exchange for political favors? Does not the guilt rest at their feet? Corporations have a right to peruse legislation favorable to the economic conduct of said business. And why are you so against "Big Business"? Do they not provide millions of well paying jobs that allow people to feed their families and peruse the American dream in a fair and just manner? I have never met a politician who has created one private sector job or fed anyone's family by providing an HONEST job. It does not happen. They can spend others money and make it appear that they are spreading manna from heaven, but in reality they are nothing more than common thieves who use their ill gotten gains in order to feed their own ego and feather their own nests. It is strange that no one in American can be insulted, no one except the American Business Man. You cant criticize anyone based upon race, sex, weight, national origin, religion, looks, education, or any number of factors, but we are encouraged to criticize, nay, encouraged to loath the American Business Man simply because he is successful... that my friends is disgusting and contrary to the notion of a free society. What makes Big Business so bad? Is it simply the size of their success and the level of influence that sticks in your craw? That is nothing more that unchecked envy, plain and simple. You want something that they have and you don't know how to achieve it, or are to unmotivated to go after it. Petty jealousy if you ask me.... one of mans most repugnant traits and its on display every where you look... especially in the mirror.

I wonder if you would support Big Business if they were to throw money to the candidate of your choice? would it be ok then if legislation that you favored were to be perused by these corporations? I think that if the tables were turned you would be playing quite a different tune my friend.

You have been blinded by class warfare and thank that everyone who has it even a little better has gotten it through nefarious means. The vast majority of people, even those who have millions, have gotten it legitimately. True you will have a few like the folks at Enron who have broken the laws, but have they not been imprisoned and their reputations ruined with the prospect of any future taken away? If a politician is involved in any type of scandal do they receive the same punishment? Rarely if ever... often they are lauded upon their release and eventually rise back to some degree of power. Look and former President Clinton, Marion Berry from DC, Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, all have broken the law and what has happened... they became more powerful than ever. These are only a few.

The paranoia you display is frightening. "They are out to get me"….. Those big bad executives……. They don’t care a whit about the common man….. Did you ever think about how much it costs a company when they have to recall a product or go through litigation because of a defective product? Is it really wise for a corporation to knowingly release a faulty product? I don’t think so…. And it rarely happens. I'm sure you can find a case or two but it amounts to a tiny fraction of a percent of all the products or services produced by American businesses.


got to get back to work now.....


p.s. ..... gazillion is not a number... its made up..... cute, but not real.

It was readily apparent that my "democracy is dead" statement referred solely to the USA. The fact you were so hasty to shift the focus to other countries is an unintended and appreciated reinforcement of my point.

As to laying blame for the current corrupt system, you stopped a step too short. Some blame lies at the feet of corrupt politicians, but ultimately it lies at our feet for continuing to elect them.

I'm all for Big Business. I'm for Big, Medium and especially Small Businesses. I'm just not in favor of them making our laws, which they do today. It's not paranoia, it's acknowledging the obvious. Even business lobbyists don't deny it, why should anyone else?

Again, though, I don't blame Big Business. I blame myself and other voters.