I guess Guantanamo isn't so bad after all.

Good stuff Dave! Agree with most of it. Main part that I would disagree with is this:

"If we had pulled out of Iraq after we bombed them back into the stone age and ran over their armies, they would be spending the next 500 years killing one another over food and water instead of planning their next attack on us while killing our occupying forces and making a lot of rich folks richer. "

A few problems with that philosophy if history can be a guide. After WWI, that's pretty much what happened to Germany. Part of the reason that the Nazis were able to come to power and part of the reason for WWII. After WWII, Germany and Japan were both rebuilt. Both are our allies today. With regard to Iraq, there are a couple more issues. First, it was Saddam's regime that was at issue, not most of the population. That aside, if Iraq was left wide open, then you have the potential for Al Queda, or other terrorist groups, to then use it as a safe haven. In addition, there would be the potential for Iran to take over. Neither of those are happy thoughts.

I see some suggesting that Obama is borrowing ideas from Bush, or keeping some of his ideas. I'm not sure why this is a bad thing. No one has suggested that everything Bush did was bad. Given 20-20 hindsight, Obama can keep those things that worked, modify others, and ditch those that did not work at all (just as Bush did for stuff Clinton did, Clinton did for Bush I, etc). In some cases, we do want folks to have the same clear message. For example, after giving the ok for a cross border raid on Taliban/Al Quade targets in Pakistan, Obama noted that we would hunt such people wherever they tried to hide. Echoes what Bush had said. That is definitely something that Al Quade should know: doesn't matter who is in charge, you cannot hide.

I see also some of the others posting suggesting that talking to Iran or other countries that are not our allies as being a bad idea. I'm not sure how people got the idea that such talks would be the equivalent of sitting around the campfire, making somemores, and singing cumbiya. Dialog between various nations is necessary. Under Bush, we chose not to talk with Iran or N Korea as they were part of the "axis of evil". That philosophy did not work. N Korea has test fired several long-range missiles and Iran is still trying for nukes. Gotta try something different.

To echo Dave:

"FACT: If this country is to survive and our way of life is to survive, you better get your head out of the sand and stand up to be counted as an AMERICAN...not a **** Republican, Democrat, African American Republican, African American Democrat, Latino American Republican, Latino American Democrat....etc, etc, etc. "

Probably would not hurt for all of us to read that part again, several times, until it sinks in.

Andrew

[QUOTE=apb;368853]We are plenty awake, thank you. Note that a whole lot of dems sided with the repubs on this one. One of the biggest things I saw in the news report yesterday was that no one wanted any terrorists from Gitmo here in a states. They also wanted to see a full plan for what was to be done with all of the detanees before they would authorize any funding. I don't have a problem with that.

I think everyone is in agreement that MOST of the detanees that are being held there are there for good reasons and should never see the light of day again. My problem is with the few folks who are there who should never have been there in the first place. You ready to toss inocent people aside?

Andrew[/QUOTE]
C'mon guy! They were on the battlefield! Not too many goats running around when MOAB's are being dropped. The innocent people were fleeing. These guys chose to stay and maybe get a chance at their virgins or whatever. They are all guilty. The question is "Are they still a danger?" That's gonna be a tricky one. I'm sure that a special forces A team didn't just nab a guy waiting at the bus stop and give him a free plane trip to cuba because he was having a bad day. Try to look at the big picture.

[QUOTE=Tom523;369323]C'mon guy! They were on the battlefield! Not too many goats running around when MOAB's are being dropped. The innocent people were fleeing. These guys chose to stay and maybe get a chance at their virgins or whatever. They are all guilty. The question is "Are they still a danger?" That's gonna be a tricky one. I'm sure that a special forces A team didn't just nab a guy waiting at the bus stop and give him a free plane trip to cuba because he was having a bad day. Try to look at the big picture.[/QUOTE]

No, actually all of them were not found on the battlefield, thats the problem. There were a number of them who were turned in by their neighbors as being terrorists. Those neighbors got rewards for turning in terrorists. Some of those people were turned in for no other reason than someone got a reward for doing so. Not all of these people were actually terrorists or a problem for the US.

Andrew

Letting the Nazi's get so powerful was our mistake that should not be repeated if we want to bring history into it. If we had knocked them down before they built up their military and before they over ran half of Europe maybe we would have saved a few million lives. We let Japan enslave half the far east and destroy most of our Pacific fleet before we decided to do something about it....seems to me we were talking to their envoys about peace when they were bombing Pearl Harbor. I do not see where having spent our hard earned tax dollars to rebuild Japan and Germany has served us all that well...unless you call having going into debt while giving them our monies and technology so they can have an unfair trade balance with us and now letting their corporations own most of our manufacturing base here is a good thing.

Bottom line here is you can't buy friends or allies. You can't buy freedom. You can't instill the desire for freedom with dollars. You can't change thousands of years worth of culture or change religous beliefs with dollars.

Do you really think that we can walk out of Iraq and the bad guys won't own it as soon as we are gone? Can we afford to keep occupying forces there forever? We have beat our military folks into the ground with deployment after deployment...and now we are going to go in force to Afghanistan? So how long are we going to occupy that area of the world while we drain our resources both militarily and monetarily? Fact is our military was reorganized back in the late 80's and 90's to be downsized into highly trained fast deploying strike forces to deal with these type fires that flare up around the world by hitting them hard and leaving. I know, I was a part of that process. We do not have the resources of money and military to be occupying forces. Those days are long gone. There are too many fires around the world for us to try to occupy every nook and cranny of the world where there are folks that will strap a bomb to their back in order to kill us. There is only one way to deal with these folks...knock them down hard, walk away, and go back and knock them down again if they even look like they are going to get up. We either change our ways of doing things..ie...hit them first before they hit us....N. Korea, Iran, etc etc or we pay the price. As for history, we have always waited until it is almost too late and then put our troops in harm's way to clean up the mess there by losing more troops and spending more of our money than would have been necessary had we gone on the offensive early on. It is time to make new history and not make the mistakes of the past. It is time to take care of the United States and not the rest of the world.

You can protect yourself by spending your money on defense and being proactive to knock down anyone that threatens your way of life and your freedoms. There are only two things that cause wars that we can't win...one is money, the other is religion....we have both embroiled in this so called fight against terrorism. Oil and drugs supply the money end of it and the religion speaks for itself.


P.S. Places like Guantanomo are necessary evils if you will.....we either give our intelligence folks the tools necessary to keep us safe or we pay the price. Should there be controls on extreme torture there..for sure...should we share with the rest of the world what we are doing there...no way. Think about this...we can't keep the borders secure from people entering into our country illigally...thousands every day coming and going....do you really think that all of these folks are just looking for work? If you think the answer is yes, this is the kind of thinking that allowed 911 to happen. Next time you feel like we are doing wrong in Guantanomo, think about your little girl or boy getting onto the school bus this morning....are you really sure there is not a terrorist on that bus with a bomb strapped to their ass just as they have done in Israel time and time again?

In a liberals world everbody talks out their problems and everything is alright, problem solved. In the real world , you can not talk to and trust terrorist groups or the countries that harbor them. In the real world such as we did throughout most of history until we became soft and a bleeding heart society, we demanded their respect. We didn't ask for it, we didn't try to buy it, we didn't BOW for it, we demanded it. In other words if you are friends with the big dog on the street and try to run a good show, with honesty and compassion for your fellow man and other countries than you will be just fine. If you choose to be a murdering tyrant that harbor's terrrorist and threatens the way of life that America holds dear than be prepared to be squashed like the cockroach you are. That's how it was before the crybabies took over, that's how it was during my parents Era. The WWII generation had the right idea make no mistake, it worked like a well oiled machine, and that is the way it should be now. I support the US Armed Forces 110 % and always have and always will. I will not second guess them because by the grace of God I have never been shot at by the enemy and watched my fellow soldiers die. People need to not talk about what they don't know and allow those that do to do their **** job. Then after they do instead of Monday morning quaterbacking just give them your support and gratitude!!!!!!

[QUOTE=mhall;369416]In a liberals world everbody talks out their problems and everything is alright, problem solved. In the real world , you can not talk to and trust terrorist groups or the countries that harbor them. In the real world such as we did throughout most of history until we became soft and a bleeding heart society, we demanded their respect. We didn't ask for it, we didn't try to buy it, we didn't BOW for it, we demanded it. In other words if you are friends with the big dog on the street and try to run a good show, with honesty and compassion for your fellow man and other countries than you will be just fine. If you choose to be a murdering tyrant that harbor's terrrorist and threatens the way of life that America holds dear than be prepared to be squashed like the cockroach you are. That's how it was before the crybabies took over, that's how it was during my parents Era. The WWII generation had the right idea make no mistake, it worked like a well oiled machine, and that is the way it should be now. I support the US Armed Forces 110 % and always have and always will. I will not second guess them because by the grace of God I have never been shot at by the enemy and watched my fellow soldiers die. People need to not talk about what they don't know and allow those that do to do their **** job. Then after they do instead of Monday morning quaterbacking just give them your support and gratitude!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Amen to that!

[QUOTE=mhall;369416]In a liberals world everbody talks out their problems and everything is alright, problem solved. In the real world , you can not talk to and trust terrorist groups or the countries that harbor them. ......[/QUOTE]

Just in case anyone is actually interested in hearing what Obama has really said rather than listen to the usual right wing bullcrap, check out [URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/[/URL] and read up.

A few things relavent to the current discussion:

[URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/03/27/A-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan/[/URL]
So I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the future. That's the goal that must be achieved. That is a cause that could not be more just.

There is an uncompromising core of the Taliban. They must be met with force, and they must be defeated.

[URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Security-and-Values/[/URL]
For the first time since 2002, we're providing the necessary resources and strategic direction to take the fight to the extremists who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-By-President-Barack-Obama-In-Prague-As-Delivered/[/URL]
So let me be clear: Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile activity poses a real threat, not just to the United States, but to Iran's neighbors and our allies. The Czech Republic and Poland have been courageous in agreeing to host a defense against these missiles. As long as the threat from Iran persists, we will go forward with a missile defense system that is cost-effective and proven. If the Iranian threat is eliminated, we will have a stronger basis for security, and the driving force for missile defense construction in Europe will be removed.

Andrew

[QUOTE=apb;369728]Just in case anyone is actually interested in hearing what Obama has really said rather than listen to the usual right wing bullcrap, check out [URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/[/URL] and read up.

A few things relavent to the current discussion:

[URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/03/27/A-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan/[/URL]
So I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the future. That's the goal that must be achieved. That is a cause that could not be more just.

There is an uncompromising core of the Taliban. They must be met with force, and they must be defeated.

[URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Security-and-Values/[/URL]
For the first time since 2002, we're providing the necessary resources and strategic direction to take the fight to the extremists who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[URL]http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-By-President-Barack-Obama-In-Prague-As-Delivered/[/URL]
So let me be clear: Iran's nuclear and ballistic missile activity poses a real threat, not just to the United States, but to Iran's neighbors and our allies. The Czech Republic and Poland have been courageous in agreeing to host a defense against these missiles. As long as the threat from Iran persists, we will go forward with a missile defense system that is cost-effective and proven. If the Iranian threat is eliminated, we will have a stronger basis for security, and the driving force for missile defense construction in Europe will be removed.

Andrew[/QUOTE]

We heard what your King said we just don't believe in one **** word of it, the man is SPINELESS!

[QUOTE=mhall;369761]We heard what your King said we just don't believe in one **** word of it, the man is SPINELESS![/QUOTE]

Based on what? You make plenty of acusations, but never supply anything to back them up. Put up, or shut up.

Andrew

[QUOTE=apb;369359]No, actually all of them were not found on the battlefield, thats the problem. There were a number of them who were turned in by their neighbors as being terrorists. Those neighbors got rewards for turning in terrorists. Some of those people were turned in for no other reason than someone got a reward for doing so. Not all of these people were actually terrorists or a problem for the US.

Andrew[/QUOTE]

They were colaberators, lol.

[QUOTE=apb;369772]Based on what? You make plenty of acusations, but never supply anything to back them up. Put up, or shut up.

Andrew[/QUOTE]

Maybe a bit strong don't ya think?? I knew I could get you testy if I tried hard enough, lol.
O.K. here goes, the man talks a great game, he gives wonderful feel good speeches that are quite heart warming and make me feel warm and fuzzy. It's the substance and being able to deliver on those speeches that concern me. He has spent money like a drunken sailor on leave and has actually made things worse by running up the deficit to unthinkable proportions. His idea of closing Gitmo is a terrible idea on too many fronts to discuss on this forum, not enough space. His Robin Hood mentality of stealing from the SO CALLED rich to feed the poor is a horrible idea. It's the small businesses in this country the employ 70 % of Americans. According to Obama they are all making out like bandits and should be taxed to death and forced to supply some type of Government run or based health care, yet another horrible idea. His feel good tour went bad in my opinion and made America seem desperate and weak. The premise of the idea I think is sound but the man nearly Groveled to some of what most Americans would consider enemies.

I'll stop now, I have more and hopefully these seem like justifiable reasons to not like the man's policies. I too could do as you have been doing and copy and paste speeches and quotes from Obama and the such but to me and my humble mind that proves very little. They are words and not actions, I'm ready for something to hang my hat on from Obama, he talked a great game, now it's time to score some points. Throwing money by the Trillions at the problems are not going to solve it either. These are my opinions and I'm entitled to them, we may disagree on politics but we can always get along when we are floating or wading......Have a nice day Mr Bradbury.

Yeah, may be a little strong! Don’t worry honey, I still loves ya :eek::p My post was more of a comment to the various folks from the right who post here than an attack on you personally. My apologies if it came across differently. Just a little too much of the liberal bashing on the board lately and very little of sustenance to back it up by a number of folks. As always, you are most certainly entitled to your opinions. I actually appreciate hearing other’s opinions on various matters, as long as they can back them up. I might learn something ;)

At this point, I think it’s a little early to tell whether Obama’s spending will do more harm or good over the long run. Given the economic mess we were (and still are) in, something had to be done. Last guy not to do anything in a similar situation was Hoover, and that ended up in a depression. As far as spending like a drunken sailor, I don’t recall many criticisms of the last guy while he did that

As for delivering on his speeches, not sure that I can agree with you. As an example, he stated early on that we needed to finish the job in Afghanistan and needed to hunt Al Qaeda where ever they hid. Since then he has authorized an additional 21k troops for Afghanistan and a cross border raid into Pakistan to hit Al Qaeda/Taliban positions. Notice how Pakistan has increased its own attacks on Al Qaeda/Taliban since then? Seems to be backing up what he said in speeches.

Like I’ve said before, and Dave has stated recently, it’s not a dem versus repub or liberal versus conservative thing. We are all Americans, time we started acting like it and stopping the partisan bs. Obama certainly was not my first choice for the position; however, I am willing to give him some time to deliver on what he promised. Four months is a pretty short time to make that call. Like any president, I’m sure there will be things that he does/says that I agree with and others that I disagree with. My 2 cents from a third string, armchair quarterback.

Hmmm, wading and fishing. Could we include a cold beverage afterwards :D