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[QUOTE=MagikSmallie;426380]Some biologists may BELEIVE that up to 50% of CERTAIN birds in CERTAIN areas are being killed by ;ead poisoning by lead fishing weights. However the Scientific REAL data confirms that LESS than 1% of Birds THAT DIE. are from lead poisoning, and that doesn't even consider lead poisoning FROM FISHING LURES![/QUOTE]
Please post up this "REAL" data you have seen.
[QUOTE=DaveStewart;426399]I see a lot of percentages referencing that ingestion of lead weights has caused "x" percentage of the deaths of the loons, but what is the percentage of the loon population as a whole that is dying from lead ingestion...???
Just as a note, we have plenty of loons here on Ky/Barkley and seem to be getting mroe and more every year.[/QUOTE]
Yea........I hear ya there............I've been going to Minnesota/Canada every year and I see a TON of them up there....seems to me, I see more there also.
AND I've seen a lot more on Dale in the Winter too...........hm.
Later,
Geo
Here's where this issue has gotten off base. First, the title of this thread is wrong to the article which changes the point of the thread a complete 180 degrees. If you actually go to the article, you'll see that it is titled, "[B]Ban[/B] on Lead Fishing Tackle Should Be Opposed", see the difference?
The second area where this whole issue has gotten off base is that the "lead" they're talking about in paint is not the same lead as in fishing tackle. Because people hear lead in paint and lead in Chinese toys, they automatically assume its the same lead they know about with fishing tackle.
I'm going to try to give everyone a quick and simple chemistry lesson. Here goes...elements such as iron, copper, lead, etc are very stable in metallic form. If you combine them with other elements, you affect the degree of stability. Metallic lead, what sinkers are made of, is very, very stable. If you swallow a sinker, it'll pass through you with no ill effects. It is very resistant to acids.
If you turn it into a compound, such as tetra-ethyl lead (lead from leaded gasoline), as it burns, the tetra-ethyl part is stripped away and you're left with lead molecules that are then free to combine with your body tissues and cause the issues everyone is talking about.
To try to explain it another way, its kind of like mercury. In its metallic form--like what you find in a thermometer, its has the potential to cause issues with tissue. But mix it with the right stuff, and you can safely fill cavities in your teeth (ever had a filling come loose and swallow it?). Lead is the opposite of that.
[QUOTE=Rudypoo4444;426400]Please post up this "REAL" data you have seen.[/QUOTE]
That 1% figure came from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and was quoted from Bassmaster.com The actual study wasn't linked to, So I am scanning the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Library and will post the link as soon as I get it.
[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/conservation/news/story?page=b_con_LeadTackleBanProposed_100901[/url]
[QUOTE=DaveStewart;426399]I see a lot of percentages referencing that ingestion of lead weights has caused "x" percentage of the deaths of the loons, but what is the percentage of the loon population as a whole that is dying from lead ingestion...??? [/QUOTE]
Yep, excellent question, one I doubt we'll ever be able to answer precisely. But regardless, IF it's true that in some places, a significant percentage of loons (or swans, or whatever) die while they are of breeding age, because of lead poisoning from ingesting lead sinkers, then to me, there's a problem. But to me it should be the biologists in that area, the ones that work for that particular state's department of fish and wildlife, who should have the most to say about whether or not lead sinkers are allowed in this or that lake. To me, it's no different then a size limit, or creel limit, or whether people should be allowed to use barbed hooks or not; it should be up to the local authorities. It might make sense to ban lead sinkers in one lake, but not in another 10 miles away, let alone one on the other side of the country.
[QUOTE=DaveStewart;426399]Just as a note, we have plenty of loons here on Ky/Barkley and seem to be getting mroe and more every year.[/QUOTE]
That's good news. But it's important to remember that most, if not all of the loons you see in Kentucky are in the process of migrating. So the fact that you're seeing more and more of them here every year doesn't mean that their population isn't getting smaller and smaller every year at this or that particular place up north where they do most of their breeding. And again, I would say that if the biologists who study those places where the population of certain species is decreasing due to lead poisoning decide they want to ban using lead sinkers IN THOSE PLACES, I have no problem with that.
Fixed the thread title. Also removed a few posts. Everyone is welcome to debate the topic as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
Andrew
[QUOTE=RoadToad;426422]Yep, excellent question, one I doubt we'll ever be able to answer precisely. But regardless, IF it's true that in some places, a significant percentage of loons (or swans, or whatever) die while they are of breeding age, because of lead poisoning from ingesting lead sinkers, then to me, there's a problem. But to me it should be the biologists in that area, the ones that work for that particular state's department of fish and wildlife, who should have the most to say about whether or not lead sinkers are allowed in this or that lake. To me, it's no different then a size limit, or creel limit, or whether people should be allowed to use barbed hooks or not; it should be up to the local authorities. It might make sense to ban lead sinkers in one lake, but not in another 10 miles away, let alone one on the other side of the country.
That's good news. But it's important to remember that most, if not all of the loons you see in Kentucky are in the process of migrating. So the fact that you're seeing more and more of them here every year doesn't mean that their population isn't getting smaller and smaller every year at this or that particular place up north where they do most of their breeding. And again, I would say that if the biologists who study those places where the population of certain species is decreasing due to lead poisoning decide they want to ban using lead sinkers IN THOSE PLACES, I have no problem with that.[/QUOTE]
Someone needs to tell these loons here they should be migrating because we have them year round here now...just like the comorants.
[QUOTE=apb;426424]Fixed the thread title. Also removed a few posts. Everyone is welcome to debate the topic as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
Andrew[/QUOTE]
Thanks Andrew, I messed up the thread title and then couldn't edit it!
There are plenty of Loons on Dale Hollow, got plenty of pics of them from April while fishing with several members of this board.
I think what may have put a bad taste in some peoples mouths in the original post was the statement something along the lines that someone has to stop Obama and Lisa Jackson. The reality is not every regulatory proposal, variance or interpretation ridiculous or not ever passes over the desk of high ranking officials at the federal or even state level. The comissioner or even director of Ky Dept of Environmental Protection certainly doesn't comment but on a fraction of those things as they leave technical reviews to the individual specialists in their respective diciplines. Yes the federal EPA can be ridiculous at times as can our own state agency but its not limited to any one particular administration. That being said I think the lead ban is ridiculous other then those areas that show real impact which appears to be up north and it should be regional not federal. If everyone knew how common lead contamination is then they would understand how silly this ban is. There are thousands of bridges in this country that flake lead paint in the stream bed below them in thousands of parts per million and thats just the start. Anywhere where leaded gasoline was used, coal burned and stored early in the century, etc....lead contamination is EVERYWHERE. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water though and Im saying anyone did. If it wasnt for the creation of the EPA and the Clean Water Act in 1970 we wouldnt have the fantastic fisheries we have today or even safe drinking water for that matter.
[QUOTE=creeker;426404]Here's where this issue has gotten off base. First, the title of this thread is wrong to the article which changes the point of the thread a complete 180 degrees. If you actually go to the article, you'll see that it is titled, "[B]Ban[/B] on Lead Fishing Tackle Should Be Opposed", see the difference?
The second area where this whole issue has gotten off base is that the "lead" they're talking about in paint is not the same lead as in fishing tackle. Because people hear lead in paint and lead in Chinese toys, they automatically assume its the same lead they know about with fishing tackle.
I'm going to try to give everyone a quick and simple chemistry lesson. Here goes...elements such as iron, copper, lead, etc are very stable in metallic form. If you combine them with other elements, you affect the degree of stability. Metallic lead, what sinkers are made of, is very, very stable. If you swallow a sinker, it'll pass through you with no ill effects. It is very resistant to acids.
If you turn it into a compound, such as tetra-ethyl lead (lead from leaded gasoline), as it burns, the tetra-ethyl part is stripped away and you're left with lead molecules that are then free to combine with your body tissues and cause the issues everyone is talking about.
To try to explain it another way, its kind of like mercury. In its metallic form--like what you find in a thermometer, its has the potential to cause issues with tissue. But mix it with the right stuff, and you can safely fill cavities in your teeth (ever had a filling come loose and swallow it?). Lead is the opposite of that.[/QUOTE]
This is a great post. Thanks for the info. I didn't know that and imagine most others didn't either. Which is why we need to oppose this ban. Please
[QUOTE=creeker;426404]I'm going to try to give everyone a quick and simple chemistry lesson. Here goes...elements such as iron, copper, lead, etc are very stable in metallic form. If you combine them with other elements, you affect the degree of stability. Metallic lead, what sinkers are made of, is very, very stable. If you swallow a sinker, it'll pass through you with no ill effects. It is very resistant to acids. [/QUOTE]
Lead dissolves fairly quickly in acid solutions, including the hydrochloric acid in a person's stomach.
[URL]http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/815399-overview[/URL]
Now, if you were to swallow a sinker whole, it may well pass through your system before enough is absorbed to cause a problem, but I wouldn't make a habit of it. But again, this is beside the point. What we're talking about is birds, not humans, and in many cases, when a bird swallows a lead weight, it remains in their stomach, and there can be enough of it absorbed to cause death by lead poisoning.
One thing I wonder about is how these birds end up swallowing sinkers? Are they inside some of the fish that they eat? Are they mistaking them for food? Seems to me most lost sinkers would end up at the bottom of the lake, and birds wouldn't get to them, but I must be missing something.