Obama's Church???

Devils Horse,

Sorry, but you still have your wars confused. It has been shown that Al Queda and Sadam were not allies, Al Queda was not in Iraq prior to the Iraq war, and the only thing that Sadam and Al Queda had in common was a dislike of Americans. Bush and co were rather disingenous when they miss lead the public into thinking that Iraq was somehow responsible for 9-11. In the months leading upto the Iraq war, Bush would rarely mention one without the other. By the time we went into Iraq, 48% of Americans thought that Iraq was either behind the attacks or played a major role in them. It was not until the months leading up to the last election that Bush publically stated that Iraq had no part in 9-11. There are still Americans to this day that believe Iraq was partly behind 9-11.

Al Queda were based in Afganistan. The Taliban (ruled Afganistan at the time) were supporters of Al Queda. Many in Afganistan did not like the Taliban (and still don't). We are not fighting that whole country, just a small fraction. You don't have to "kill every man in the country", just Al Queda and Taliban. Rebuild the infastructure, schools, hospitals, etc, and you'll win the hearts of the people there. Once Al Queda/Taliban are out and the country is stable, Mission Accomplished. Using our resources elsewhere, and shifting our focus was foolhardy.

Iraq was for completely different reasons (WMD, iminent threat, he tried to kill my daddy, remove a brutal dictator, bring democracy, or whatever the reason of the month was-yeah, and I though Kerry was supoosed to be Mr Flip Flop), though we'll probably never know the real reasons that we are there. I have no doubt that Iraqis are much better off without Sadam dead and gone. If that country can be secured, the people will be much better off than they were before. My disagreement with all this is that I don't believe Iraq was the threat they were made out to be (sorry, but we have some **** good people in the service, no one is a match for them) and that it was not in America's best interest to start that war. Think about it, Iran and Iraq basically kept each other in check. Remove one, you now have a void and the region is less stable. The loss of American lives and $12B a month, not to mention loosing focus on the real enemy in Afganistan, is just not worth it.


"we pull out on the Iraqis it'll be disastrous. Iran will most likely take the country and our soldiers will have died for nothing. We've disarmed Iraq for the most part, and they won't stand a chance on their own for quite a while yet. How long I don't know, but longer than the American public has the stomach for."

I actually agree with you on this. While things are rather messy over there now, I'm not convinced that it is in our best interest to pull out immediately. I don't agree with us being there in the first place, but now that we've started the mess, we gotta clean it up. Bush and co basically bungled this from the get go. Hopefully whoever is commander in chief next can fix it. Obama and Clinton may talk about pulling out, but I believe that once they are in office, they'll soon see that it is not as easy as it may look on paper.

Andrew

[QUOTE=apb;319304]Devils Horse,

Sorry, but you still have your wars confused. It has been shown that Al Queda and Sadam were not allies, Al Queda was not in Iraq prior to the Iraq war, and the only thing that Sadam and Al Queda had in common was a dislike of Americans. Bush and co were rather disingenous when they miss lead the public into thinking that Iraq was somehow responsible for 9-11. In the months leading upto the Iraq war, Bush would rarely mention one without the other. By the time we went into Iraq, 48% of Americans thought that Iraq was either behind the attacks or played a major role in them. It was not until the months leading up to the last election that Bush publically stated that Iraq had no part in 9-11. There are still Americans to this day that believe Iraq was partly behind 9-11. [QUOTE=apb;319304]


So terrorist training camps sponsored by Hussein weren't in Iraq, and the people our soldiers have been fighting just moved in after they got there? Al Queda as I understand it is a federation of terrorists linked by the common goal of the destroying Israel and the US. I don't buy that Hussein had nothing to do with them. I guess I'd be one of those who are ignorant enough to believe a country harboring and training terrorists was partly responsible for 9-11.

[QUOTE=apb;319304] Al Queda were based in Afganistan. The Taliban (ruled Afganistan at the time) were supporters of Al Queda. Many in Afganistan did not like the Taliban (and still don't). We are not fighting that whole country, just a small fraction. You don't have to "kill every man in the country", just Al Queda and Taliban. Rebuild the infastructure, schools, hospitals, etc, and you'll win the hearts of the people there. Once Al Queda/Taliban are out and the country is stable, Mission Accomplished. Using our resources elsewhere, and shifting our focus was foolhardy. [QUOTE=apb;319304]

A bit of an oversimplification if you're saying Al Queda was only in Afghanistan. Fact is they may have had the leaders of some factions hiding there but they're scattered throughout the middle east, Iran, Iraq, and even in those countries who are our 'friends'. It's not quite as simple as cleaning up Afghanistan and you're done. If it were that straightforward why didn't they do it? The greatest victory any modern day President could claim is vctory over the middle eastern terrorists.

[QUOTE=apb;319304] Iraq was for completely different reasons (WMD, iminent threat, he tried to kill my daddy, remove a brutal dictator, bring democracy, or whatever the reason of the month was-yeah, and I though Kerry was supoosed to be Mr Flip Flop), though we'll probably never know the real reasons that we are there. I have no doubt that Iraqis are much better off without Sadam dead and gone. If that country can be secured, the people will be much better off than they were before. My disagreement with all this is that I don't believe Iraq was the threat they were made out to be (sorry, but we have some **** good people in the service, no one is a match for them) and that it was not in America's best interest to start that war. Think about it, Iran and Iraq basically kept each other in check. Remove one, you now have a void and the region is less stable. The loss of American lives and $12B a month, not to mention loosing focus on the real enemy in Afganistan, is just not worth it. [QUOTE=apb;319304]

I suppose your theory is the Bush administration is so corrupt and evil they just wanted to beat up on Iraq for no reason other than to distract the American public while leaving the real enemy in Afghanistan. Sorry I ain't buying that. It would be nice if Afghanistan housed the only real enemy.


[QUOTE=apb;319304] "we pull out on the Iraqis it'll be disastrous. Iran will most likely take the country and our soldiers will have died for nothing. We've disarmed Iraq for the most part, and they won't stand a chance on their own for quite a while yet. How long I don't know, but longer than the American public has the stomach for."

I actually agree with you on this. While things are rather messy over there now, I'm not convinced that it is in our best interest to pull out immediately. I don't agree with us being there in the first place, but now that we've started the mess, we gotta clean it up. Bush and co basically bungled this from the get go. Hopefully whoever is commander in chief next can fix it. Obama and Clinton may talk about pulling out, but I believe that once they are in office, they'll soon see that it is not as easy as it may look on paper. [QUOTE=apb;319304]

We agree on something? Maybe world peace does have a chance.

What people just can't seem to get is once the Iraqi "mess" is "cleaned up" that's far from the end of it. Now that the radical Muslims are focused on us we'll be fighting them for many years to come. Most people seem to feel if can just get out of Iraq, things'll be okay. Not so. The Dems are capitalizing on that sentiment. No long term plan with how they'll deal with Muslim terrorists, they'll just get us the heck out of Iraq. Seems to be good enough for all the teary-eyed Dem supporters to just get out of there and bring our troops home.

OB's gonna open dialogue with them, Hillary'll be too busy quashing the vast right wing conspiracy to bother with them, and honestly I'm not sure exactly what to make of McCain.

Sure wish I had the answers.

[QUOTE=Devils Horse;319317]

So terrorist training camps sponsored by Hussein weren't in Iraq, and the people our soldiers have been fighting just moved in after they got there? Al Queda as I understand it is a federation of terrorists linked by the common goal of the destroying Israel and the US. I don't buy that Hussein had nothing to do with them. I guess I'd be one of those who are ignorant enough to believe a country harboring and training terrorists was partly responsible for 9-11. [/QUOTE]

Too simplistic. We started fighing those loyal to Hussein. Foreign fighters soon joined in against American troops. Al Queda and others joined in. Others sponsered by Syria and Iran joined in, possibly others. Now a big mess.

[QUOTE=Devils Horse;319317]
A bit of an oversimplification if you're saying Al Queda was only in Afghanistan. Fact is they may have had the leaders of some factions hiding there but they're scattered throughout the middle east, Iran, Iraq, and even in those countries who are our 'friends'. It's not quite as simple as cleaning up Afghanistan and you're done. If it were that straightforward why didn't they do it? The greatest victory any modern day President could claim is vctory over the middle eastern terrorists. [/QUOTE]

No, not what I was saying. The people who were DIRECTLY responsible for the 9/11 attacks were based in Afganistan. Yes, Al Queda and their allies are elsewhere (Sudan, Indonesia, etc.). I agree (****, stop making me do that!) it is not as simple as cleaning up Afganistan and we are done. Clean up Afganistan and you are done in Afganistan, time to move on to clean up elsewhere. Most likely, we are doing some of that clean up now, but much more quietly.

[QUOTE=Devils Horse;319317]
I suppose your theory is the Bush administration is so corrupt and evil they just wanted to beat up on Iraq for no reason other than to distract the American public while leaving the real enemy in Afghanistan. Sorry I ain't buying that. It would be nice if Afghanistan housed the only real enemy. [/QUOTE]


My theory is that we'll never know the real reason the Bush administration went into Iraq. We do know that all the reasons they stated just prior to the war were either trumped up or out right wrong.


[QUOTE=Devils Horse;319317]
What people just can't seem to get is once the Iraqi "mess" is "cleaned up" that's far from the end of it. .... [/QUOTE]

Agree again. Worled peas must be next....

[QUOTE=Devils Horse;319317]
OB's gonna open dialogue with them, Hillary'll be too busy quashing the vast right wing conspiracy to bother with them, [/QUOTE]

No. Obama said that he would open a dialog with Iran, and other countries. Bush has also agreed to some talks with those folks. NO ONE has said they would talk to terrorists.

[QUOTE=Devils Horse;319317] Sure wish I had the answers. [/QUOTE]

Wish someone had the answers and would make it happen.

Andrew

Just watched a video clip of this knucklehead pastor preaching about Bill Clinton doing the black race like he did Monica L. this man is a nut case. BO said he rejects his comments.....I'm sorry, Louis F. loves you and this poser of a preacher loves you something stinks! You are judged by the company you keep.

This is turning on BO. The press is killing him.

Yeah, on Fox today they kept showing footage of his pastor, Jeremiah Wright, ranting about how the government hid the truth about HIV "as a means of genocide against people of color," followed by pics of him and Obama arm in arm. The guy is just a nut! But if you look at what he says, and compare that to everything Obama has been saying all along, it should be pretty obvious that Obama doesn't share this guy's lunatic views. What amazes me is that someone as intelligent and educated as Obama would listen to this guy's crap in the fist place.

It's no secret that I'm not an Obama fan but I am disgusted with JW and his racial rants in church. It's gonna bring BO down and I really feel it will cost him the President's race.

[QUOTE=DJD;319655]It's no secret that I'm not an Obama fan but I am disgusted with JW and his racial rants in church. It's gonna bring BO down and I really feel it will cost him the President's race.[/QUOTE]

Thank Goodness, I hope so......

Here an Israeli commentator warns of pogroms coming in America in response to Jewish participation in liberal movements. A curious read.
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/on-anti-semitism-in-america.htm