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[QUOTE=kygorski;543648]God and religion, can't be one with out the other. Lets try a simple one. Which came first, chicken or the egg?[/QUOTE]
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actually a belief in a god and religion are claimed to be separate... I'm personally inclined to agree with you, not sure how someone could acquire a belief in a creator without being first led in that direction by a formal religion of some kind... How could you believe in the christian god other than bible teachings...
[QUOTE=waterdog101;543600]you and I are on the same page on this one, every thing we see around us, and up above, has to come from a God. be open minded and think about The Big Bang Theory, if a big bang created all this, the big bang had to be intelligent, it created and placed all the planets in the right order, with one being the sun for a heat source. created two types of water, salt and fresh water, thousands of different plants and trees, thousand of different insects, with both male and female of each kind, thousands of different kind of fish, male and female, all the animals both male and female, oxygen for animals and people to breathe. made man and woman with minds smart enough to build a ride that can take them into outer space, placed the earth the right distance from the sun, so we could have different seasons. made our digestive systems so we could eat the plants it made.one could go on and on looking at all the wonders this intelligent Big Bang made. I just can't see this wonderful world being created by an explosion.[/QUOTE]
Dude...you pretty much nailed it. Nice post.
[QUOTE=kygorski;543648]God and religion, can't be one with out the other. Lets try a simple one. Which came first, chicken or the egg?[/QUOTE] let see here, chicken comes from an egg, but the egg needs the body heat from the hen chicken, for it to hatch. and a baby chick like all other babys need mom to feed them so they don't just starve to death, and the bible says God created all the animals, so my guess would be, the Chicken came first.
[QUOTE=MrSplitshot;543573]There is a God, who has no beginning and no end. He just exists, because He does, or because we don't yet know all of the backstory. He created the universe and all within it. If the "Big Bang" happened after that, fine, but God got the ball rolling so to speak.
All of that is very much supernatural. Therefore, if you believe in that, it's not inconceivable to believe in Jesus as God incarnate, the resurrection, and the stories written in the Bible. All of that is pretty supernatural too.
I have doubts...I question, because of how supernatural it is...maybe one day I won't...but that's the setup that I try to put my faith in. I go with it, hoping one day something will cause me to believe without a doubt.
I heard a song one time called "Those Crazy Christians" by Brad Paisley that I found touching. There's a lyric at the end that kind of hit me: "Those crazy Christians. They look to Heaven their whole lives and I think 'What if they're wrong?' But, what if they're right?"
[video=youtube_share;nnbsI6ubpG8]http://youtu.be/nnbsI6ubpG8[/video][/QUOTE] I had never heard this song, it is Beautiful, thanks for sharing it.
[QUOTE=Lydia Wayne;543640]Struck by these lines. :-)[/QUOTE]
Thanks...:)
A few comments on various thoughts from above:
“Something exists.
You do not get something from nothing.
Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists.”
I think you are missing a large section there. You make a huge jump from something exists, to an eternal being exists, but nowhere do you prove an eternal being exists.
You cannot deny you exist because you have to exist in order to deny your own existence (which is self-defeating), so the first premise above is true. No one has ever demonstrated that something can come from nothing unless they redefine what ‘nothing’ is, so the second premise rings true. Therefore, the conclusion naturally follows—an eternal Being is responsible for everything that exists.”
Again, you make a huge jump. You have not proven that an external being exists and is responsible for everything. L. Krauss has an interesting book out called “A universe from nothing”. Well worth the read. He shows that without breaking the laws of physics, you can get a universe from nothing. Still need more data to further evaluate his hypothesis. Just because you cannot explain something does not mean that god exists.
“ However, the problem with that stance is that all scientific evidence points to the fact that the universe had a beginning (the ‘big bang’). And everything that has a beginning must have a cause; therefore, the universe had a cause and is not eternal. Because the only two sources of eternality are an eternal universe (denied by all current empirical evidence) or an eternal Creator, the only logical conclusion is that God exists. Answering the question of God’s existence in the affirmative rules out atheism as a valid belief system.”
Incorrect. There are an increasing number of physicists who argue that the universe did not have a beginning. The big bang was one event that occurred and produced our current universe. But what happened before that? Could there have been a previous universe that collapsed on itself? If you must argue that everything has a cause, then what caused god?
“I'm arguing against the stance that if you can't explain or understand God, then God doesn't exist.”
And the corollary: just because you cannot determine how it works or was done, does not mean that god did it. The old god of the gaps argument.
“you and I are on the same page on this one, every thing we see around us, and up above, has to come from a God. be open minded and think about The Big Bang Theory, if a big bang created all this, the big bang had to be intelligent, it created and placed all the planets in the right order, with one being the sun for a heat source. created two types of water, salt and fresh water, thousands of different plants and trees, thousand of different insects, with both male and female of each kind, thousands of different kind of fish, male and female, all the animals both male and female, oxygen for animals and people to breathe. made man and woman with minds smart enough to build a ride that can take them into outer space, placed the earth the right distance from the sun, so we could have different seasons. made our digestive systems so we could eat the plants it made.one could go on and on looking at all the wonders this intelligent Big Bang made. I just can't see this wonderful world being created by an explosion.”
In short, the anthropic principal. An analogy might be: someone wins the lottery and thinks, wow, I must be special, what are the odds of me winning! Of course they fail to consider that someone had to win, and that many others did not win. In a similar vein, some suggest that the odds must be astronomical that the earth could be that far from the sun, liquid water, etc.; therefore, the earth must be special to have life. The Milky Way galaxy has something like 300 billion stars in it. There are something like 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe. Even with astronomical odds, it had to happen on at least one planet.
“archaeology has proved the bible”
Some parts, yes. Other parts not at all. For example, there is absolutely no evidence of an exodus or 650,000 people (the figure from the book of Numbers) wondering the desert for 40 years. In fact, archaeology indicates that the people of Israel were descendant from people who had lived in the area for 100’s of years. Likewise, there is no evidence of a global flood. Incidentally, the Noah flood story originally appeared in the Epic of Gilgamesh, a Babylonian/Sumerian myth written 500-600 years before the bible.
“Saying there's no God is like saying there is no sun, I promise you the sun is not just an unexplainable light. There's a sun!”
I can observe a sun, so I know it is there. I can take measurements, determine its make up, and many other things about it. Therefore, I can conclude that there is a sun. One can neither measure nor observe a “god”.
[QUOTE=waterdog101;543578]2 Peter ch3 verse 8
[h=2]But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [I]is[/I] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[/h][/QUOTE]
Yes......and this leads to the questions/issues with the earth being only 6000-7000 years old, since God stated how long a "God Day" exists.
HM.........How can I believe this, and also believe that deano the dino roamed this great earth a few hundred million years ago.....
[QUOTE=GeoFisher;543695]Yes......and this leads to the questions/issues with the earth being only 6000-7000 years old, since God stated how long a "God Day" exists.
HM.........How can I believe this, and also believe that deano the dino roamed this great earth a few hundred million years ago.....[/QUOTE]
I should also say, I'm in one of the most diverse ecosystems I've ever laid eyes on......It is UNREAL the coolness of this place.
[QUOTE=GeoFisher;543697]I should also say, I'm in one of the most diverse ecosystems I've ever laid eyes on......It is UNREAL the coolness of this place.[/QUOTE] enjoy it, nothing here but ice age...
[QUOTE=GeoFisher;543695]Yes......and this leads to the questions/issues with the earth being only 6000-7000 years old, since God stated how long a "God Day" exists.
HM.........How can I believe this, and also believe that deano the dino roamed this great earth a few hundred million years ago.....[/QUOTE] Geo I'm no bible scholar, but on dish network channel 256 there is a preacher named Arnold Murray, his church is called { Little Shepherd's Chapel ) he teaches chapter by chapter, verse by verse. he is a Bible scholar, he speaks three languages, English, Greek, and Hebrew, he teaches from the KJV Bible, and refers back to the Hebrew Bible when the KJV Bible don't go deep enough in detail, he teaches that there have been two earth ages, one before Eve and Adam and thats when the Dinosaurs roamed the earth, when God made Eve and Adam, that was the start of the second earth age, the one we live in now and when Jesus Christ comes back again, that will be the start of the third earth age. I had never heard that teached before, but it makes sense for the really old bones that are found, and the 6 and 7 thousand years go back to the start of Eve and Adam, I'm not smart enough to go into detail on what he teaches, but he has preached for over 50 years, he really gets deep into things in the Bible. what he says he backs up from the KJV and Hebrew Bibles, he sheds light on the arguments about the earth being younger than some say, and it being older than some say. he has been the pastor of that church so long, they have thousands of taped services he has done, from a much younger man until his hair is white as snow. if you have Dish network check him out, he teaches " Preaches " for about 45 minutes, then answers Bible questions sent in to him by folks all over the USA.
[QUOTE=waterdog101;543716]Geo I'm no bible scholar, but on dish network channel 256 there is a preacher named Arnold Murray, his church is called { Little Shepherd's Chapel ) he teaches chapter by chapter, verse by verse. he is a Bible scholar, he speaks three languages, English, Greek, and Hebrew, he teaches from the KJV Bible, and refers back to the Hebrew Bible when the KJV Bible don't go deep enough in detail, he teaches that there have been two earth ages, one before Eve and Adam and thats when the Dinosaurs roamed the earth, when God made Eve and Adam, that was the start of the second earth age, the one we live in now and when Jesus Christ comes back again, that will be the start of the third earth age. I had never heard that teached before, but it makes sense for the really old bones that are found, and the 6 and 7 thousand years go back to the start of Eve and Adam, I'm not smart enough to go into detail on what he teaches, but he has preached for over 50 years, he really gets deep into things in the Bible. what he says he backs up from the KJV and Hebrew Bibles, he sheds light on the arguments about the earth being younger than some say, and it being older than some say. he has been the pastor of that church so long, they have thousands of taped services he has done, from a much younger man until his hair is white as snow. if you have Dish network check him out, he teaches " Preaches " for about 45 minutes, then answers Bible questions sent in to him by folks all over the USA.[/QUOTE]
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Have you read anything about this individual.... He has some critics..
[QUOTE=Hlleonard;543719]--
Have you read anything about this individual.... He has some critics..[/QUOTE] no, I haven't read anything about him, I've listen to him preach two or three times a week for the last 4 years. he seems ok to me, it shows what he is reading from the Bible as he does it, I really like to hear him answer the questions people write in and ask. like I said he gets deep into what happen, in the first earth age before Eve and Adam, and why eve sinned, and the reason for Cain killing his brother Abel. I have never heard another Preacher go this route, most just say she ate of the forbidden fruit, or " Apple " he seams to be a nice and kind person to me, I like hearing him. everyone has critics.