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Not wanting to get into a fracas here but I haven't met a christian yet that never had the habit of cherry picking the old testament... It seems to me if the new testament is the christian law then the ten commandants that they all seem to want posted on every wall that has an empty space is not viable.
For all you guys who believe this family was a backwoods bunch that somebody stumbled over and began making into a non-scripted camo wearing reality show, you might want to look for some pre-duck dynasty information about them, you might findout they were a non camo wearing bunch of millionaires wearing shorts and swinging golf club like so many other preppies... some were even clean shaven seems.
[QUOTE=apb;525814]What did Jesus have to say about homosexuals? Been a while since I read the bible, but I seem to remember it was in Leviticus (OT). If nothing in the NT, does that mean it is ok?[/QUOTE]
The NT also condemns it, I'll give one example but there are others as well.
[B]Romans Chapter 1
[/B][B]24[/B] Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
[B]25 [/B]For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed fnforever. Amen
[B]26[/B] For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
[B]27[/B] and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
[quote]If christians are no longer under the laws of the OT, why do many use OT passages as a reason for their beliefs? [/quote]
One thing to understand is that the moral laws, guidance, lessons, wisdom, etc we learn from the OT is still applicable. Like the verse I quoted in my pervious post, Jesus didn't abolish, but fulfilled and there is a big difference. Also just for a little added information there are references to homosexuality in the OT as far back as Genesis, even before the laws were handed down which made it clear that it was wrong. So again the bible is consistent in this teaching,
It is not an easy topic of discussion, but my main point is that when Christians hold that view it is not formed exclusively from isolated verses of the OT, and when a Christian doesn't adhere to ceremonial laws given to the Israelites it doesn't make them a hypocrite.
I hope this helps to answer your questions
[QUOTE=Hlleonard;525816]Not wanting to get into a fracas here but I haven't met a christian yet that never had the habit of cherry picking the old testament... It seems to me if the new testament is the christian law then the ten commandants that they all seem to want posted on every wall that has an empty space is not viable.[/QUOTE]
What you have to first understand is that there is a difference between moral laws given from God, and ceremonial laws that were given to the Israelites.
[QUOTE=SLP;525820]What you have to first understand is that there is a difference between moral laws given from God, and ceremonial laws that were given to the Israelites.[/QUOTE]
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Not trying to come across as an ah**e here so I won't pursue the discussion and I am more accepting of the scientific explaination, Have known a good many folks like yourself and it does seem to me whenever there seems to be a conflict as far as what they believe the teachings of the new testament seems to be their rule book but will inevitably reach into the old testament if it will lend itself to proving their point... To me that sort of labels them a hypocrite.... It either is or it isn't... It seems politicians have these same talents.
[QUOTE=Hlleonard;525821]--
Not trying to come across as an ah**e here so I won't pursue the discussion and I am more accepting of the scientific explaination, Have known a good many folks like yourself and it does seem to me whenever there seems to be a conflict as far as what they believe the teachings of the new testament seems to be their rule book but will inevitably reach into the old testament if it will lend itself to proving their point... To me that sort of labels them a hypocrite.... It either is or it isn't... It seems politicians have these same talents.[/QUOTE]
[I]All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work[/I]. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
As Christians we believe all of the bible, both the NT & OT. I apologize if I haven't explained that clearly enough. I don't see the conflict.
[QUOTE=SLP;525823][I]All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work[/I]. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
As Christians we believe all of the bible, both the NT & OT. I apologize if I haven't explained that clearly enough. I don't see the conflict.[/QUOTE]
You have explained it just fine.......and I for one appreciate it.
You will find those, like above with the "scientific" response, that will try to poke holes in your explanation because it doesn't fit that they believe. Heck, I'm a science guy too, and LOTS of stuff based on science doesn't fit, but if I'm right and there IS a God, I'm sure glad I believe, versus someone who doesn't.
Again, thanks for the explanation.
Later,
Geo
[QUOTE=riverrat12;525744]Yep that's my boy...The reason I have an open seat all the time....[/QUOTE]
And I love sitting in it with ya....:)
[QUOTE=apb;525814]What did Jesus have to say about homosexuals? Been a while since I read the bible, but I seem to remember it was in Leviticus (OT). If nothing in the NT, does that mean it is ok?
If christians are no longer under the laws of the OT, why do many use OT passages as a reason for their beliefs?
Seems to me that if one quotes OT law to support their arguement, then they are also obligated to support other OT laws.
Not trying to be an ass here, just trying to learn something.[/QUOTE]
I agree with the nature of these questions. As a Christian myself, I think how we handle some of these confusing parts of the Old Testament sometimes really hurt our credibility. The ceremonial laws vs commandments from God get real blurry, real fast.
Personally, I think homosexuality is wrong, but no more wrong than a bunch of other sins I unfortunately commit on a regular basis.
[QUOTE=know1;525835]I agree with the nature of these questions. As a Christian myself, I think how we handle some of these confusing parts of the Old Testament sometimes really hurt our credibility. The ceremonial laws vs commandments from God get real blurry, real fast.
Personally, I think homosexuality is wrong, but no more wrong than a bunch of other sins I unfortunately commit on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
Well said
[QUOTE=know1;525835]I agree with the nature of these questions. As a Christian myself, I think how we handle some of these confusing parts of the Old Testament sometimes really hurt our credibility. The ceremonial laws vs commandments from God get real blurry, real fast.
Personally, I think homosexuality is wrong, but no more wrong than a bunch of other sins I unfortunately commit on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]
The real problem within Christianity isn't inconsistent application of OT texts, but our inability to explain them because of our Biblical illiteracy.
Basically, when you ask me to follow ALL the laws of the OT, you are asking me to deny Christ.
Here is the best article I've ever read on the topic:
[URL]http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events/newsletter/?aid=363[/URL]
SLP and jcb, appreciate the explanations and link.
I'll admit that I share Hlleonard's thoughts on much of this. Too much wiggle room for things, and too many people quoting the same verses, but assigning different meanings (not on this forum, in general). Big part of the problem that I had years ago when I was a believer: ask for clarification concerning parts of the bible that seemed in contradiction, and how do we know which one is right, and either get told to shut up, not too question, or get a non-answer all too often. May be its the scientist in me: my level of belief in something is equal to the amount of solid evidence for something.
geo:
Not sure that it is trying to poke holes because it does not fit our belief. It is more the case of trying to learn something. I have had a number of conversations with people on beliefs (I question them, they question me). I respect their beliefs even if I do not share them and the reverse is true. Its a way for both to learn something new or at least come to an understanding of how someone else sees something. I'm not one to try and force my beliefs on someone else: my beliefs may be wrong. Likewise, I do not allow others to force their beliefs on me. Plenty of religions in the world, they cannot all be right.
Regarding homosexuality as "wrong". I don't think we can claim it wrong or right, it just is. Same for heterosexuality. Claiming someone is wrong (or a sinner) because they are homosexual is akin to saying someone is wrong because they are blood type O, or have brown hair, or blue eyes, or brown skin, etc. You are born that way, it is not a choice and not something that you can change. For those who think it is a choice, try living as a homosexual for a month and let us know how easy it is. Also consider that there are documented cases of same sex coupling in over 100 different animal species. Its just part of nature. Why, no idea!