Border Drugs

[Buzzy]

We are free, and we stay that way when we don't commit crimes and act responsibly

What is dumb is not looking at root causes. If you don't want to go to jail for using drugs, OMG would the root cause method to solve that be maybe to NOT DO DRUGS? When drugs are available people use them.

So infact, isn't making drugs harder to get making it at least a little easier for people to stay out of jail?
.7% of the US population is in jail at any one time. Is that too high? Yep I agree. So how do you keep more people from going to jail? OMG, maybe if we had fewer people committing crimes and getting caught that would work? So do you also want to stop prosecuting robbery, car jacks, shootings, rape, and or child abuse as a way to lower the number of people in jail? Again, how about if people just stop committing crimes, OMG THAT MIGHT WORK!

So if you legalize drugs do you think more or fewer people will drive under the influence of drugs?
So if you decide to make drugs with the potential to cause life threatening health issues available to everyone do you think more or less people will need medical attention.

4 out of 5 people in prison or jail are locked up for something other than a drug offense — either a more serious offense or an even less serious one.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2022.html

Like I said you are the problem. There are too many laws on the books. Who are you to tell people how to live if they dont impact you.I guarantee that there would be fewer overdoes if there were legal drugs because people would actually know the doses they are taking. You could be able to do it and not kill yourself.

I've done drugs, clearly you havent, probably because you're a pussy or a bible beater.

Get off your high horse and kiss my ass.

[dragmerc]

i lost a friend to drugs.
he was a good guy, just not too smart.
he didn't drink and worked his business until he got on pain pills for his back.
he couldn't get off the dope and kept using stronger stuff.
he sold his business and spent all the money on dope.
he had children and grand children. it was so sad.
some people don't have any self control, just like fat people or alcoholics.
how do we judge what is best for everyone?
if we legalized drugs, would more people die?
would my tax money be used to take care of dope heads and the associated crime?
i don't think federal money should be used to support local police.
if we locked up all users for a year, would they just start again when they got out?
i don't like to be high on anything even though i tried pot back in my college days.
sometimes i think we should legalize everything and have the cops focus on other crime.
but some people are wired differently and have a weakness for getting high on dope or alcohol.
i don't know the answer to our drug problem.

[Moveon]

i lost a friend to drugs.
he was a good guy, just not too smart.
he didn't drink and worked his business until he got on pain pills for his back.
he couldn't get off the dope and kept using stronger stuff.
he sold his business and spent all the money on dope.
he had children and grand children. it was so sad.
some people don't have any self control, just like fat people or alcoholics.
how do we judge what is best for everyone?
if we legalized drugs, would more people die?
would my tax money be used to take care of dope heads and the associated crime?
i don't think federal money should be used to support local police.
if we locked up all users for a year, would they just start again when they got out?
i don't like to be high on anything even though i tried pot back in my college days.
sometimes i think we should legalize everything and have the cops focus on other crime.
but some people are wired differently and have a weakness for getting high on dope or alcohol.
i don't know the answer to our drug problem.

No one likes illegal drugs

[ZoraSpook]

Like I said you are the problem. There are too many laws on the books. Who are you to tell people how to live if they dont impact you.I guarantee that there would be fewer overdoes if there were legal drugs because people would actually know the doses they are taking. You could be able to do it and not kill yourself.

I've done drugs, clearly you havent, probably because you're a pussy or a bible beater.

Get off your high horse and kiss my ass.

Not doing drugs is a healthy choice one makes. I do agree with one of your thoughts that if regulated and produced then consistency might reduce overdoses and taking stuff when the user does not know what is in the pill offered. so That I agree with ya on.

And you hit another important point, somehow we got to get the word to folks to offer help and counseling before drugs becoames an unhealthy life choice.

Now, if we combined the 2. Laws stay in place for illegally produced drugs. If a person use illegally produced drugs and commits a crime under the influence, they still go to jail, but we increase EFFECTIVE counceling while the person is off the streets so that when they return to society they have their drug problem more under control, and have benn then given access to legally made substitutes or meds to keep them off the dangerous stuff.

Bottom line to the deal is DON'T MANAGE THE STATISTICS, manage the care we give to people and increase our bility to do dso. But, YOU HAVE TO HOLED PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR VIOLATING LAWS. You dont reduce your crime rates but declaing fewer people criminals. You reduce crime by showing peole what happens if they do, and also by EFFECTIVELY treating those that you can with vocational training, job skills, and personal skills so they don't go back to the street and commit more crime.

SOLVE THE PROBELM, NOT THE STATISTICS. Solve the probelm and the statistics will follow.

Last point, how much of a role does the Bible play in the 12 step process? Can the values found in that book lead flks to a helathier safer life?

[Moveon]

[QU

The fact that the Bible was written by Jewish wise men and they had a good pulse on life. I'm not sure what Drugs they had back in the Bible days or what type of wine they drank or spirits. But the same thing that happens these days when too much Alcohol is imbibed had to happen back then too. And the results are not pretty no matter what time period the alcohol is drank in excess.

[Buzzy]

Not doing drugs is a healthy choice one makes. I do agree with one of your thoughts that if regulated and produced then consistency might reduce overdoses and taking stuff when the user does not know what is in the pill offered. so That I agree with ya on.

And you hit another important point, somehow we got to get the word to folks to offer help and counseling before drugs becoames an unhealthy life choice.

Now, if we combined the 2. Laws stay in place for illegally produced drugs. If a person use illegally produced drugs and commits a crime under the influence, they still go to jail, but we increase EFFECTIVE counceling while the person is off the streets so that when they return to society they have their drug problem more under control, and have benn then given access to legally made substitutes or meds to keep them off the dangerous stuff.

Bottom line to the deal is DON'T MANAGE THE STATISTICS, manage the care we give to people and increase our bility to do dso. But, YOU HAVE TO HOLED PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE FOR VIOLATING LAWS. You dont reduce your crime rates but declaing fewer people criminals. You reduce crime by showing peole what happens if they do, and also by EFFECTIVELY treating those that you can with vocational training, job skills, and personal skills so they don't go back to the street and commit more crime.

SOLVE THE PROBELM, NOT THE STATISTICS. Solve the probelm and the statistics will follow.

Last point, how much of a role does the Bible play in the 12 step process? Can the values found in that book lead flks to a helathier safer life?

I agree rather than sending them to jail we should send them to counseling. The war on drugs is one of the biggest failures, waste of time, money and lives we will ever see. You can %100 reduce crime by making things not illegal anymore. Think of the 1000's of possessions, paraphernalia charges everyday. Think of the amount of traffic stops a cop "smells" weed and searches a car.

If someone were to hit a pedestrian, ya they should be put in jail for DUI.

The problem is that they are illegal. You want to solve it make them legal with correct doses.

I've lost 8 friends to overdoses. 5 were vets that were prescribed unlimited pills after an injury while serving. Once stateside the supply ran out and they had to shoot up to get the same pain relief from the previously prescribed pills. Two others were blue collar workers who had on the job accidents but the story was the same after the Prescription ran out.

Long story short since it was illegal, they went deeper into seclusion scared to reach out because of the negative views on users. Most of us never knew how bad it was until we got the call.

"Pain management" in the Appalachian region killed more people than 20 years of the War on Terror.

People do drugs, if they want or need to get clean there should be free options with housing available. Not severe punishment and scrutiny.

[ZoraSpook]

I agree rather than sending them to jail we should send them to counseling. The war on drugs is one of the biggest failures, waste of time, money and lives we will ever see. You can %100 reduce crime by making things not illegal anymore. Think of the 1000's of possessions, paraphernalia charges everyday. Think of the amount of traffic stops a cop "smells" weed and searches a car.

If someone were to hit a pedestrian, ya they should be put in jail for DUI.

The problem is that they are illegal. You want to solve it make them legal with correct doses.

I've lost 8 friends to overdoses. 5 were vets that were prescribed unlimited pills after an injury while serving. Once stateside the supply ran out and they had to shoot up to get the same pain relief from the previously prescribed pills. Two others were blue collar workers who had on the job accidents but the story was the same after the Prescription ran out.

Long story short since it was illegal, they went deeper into seclusion scared to reach out because of the negative views on users. Most of us never knew how bad it was until we got the call.

"Pain management" in the Appalachian region killed more people than 20 years of the War on Terror.

People do drugs, if they want or need to get clean there should be free options with housing available. Not severe punishment and scrutiny.

Agree completely on the last point in that when a person dies the tough thing if first admitting to themselves they have s problem and need help that acceptance of personal responsibility is the paramount point and turning point where availability of counseling and housing needs be provided. We agree on that sir.

Now take the person that uses drugs and drives under the influence. Stopped for tail light out, cop smells the reefer that’s probable cause to believe driver might represent a potential safe driving threat to others. I know neither you or I want a friend, family member, or relative injured because sone one under the influence failed to drive safely. I know we agree on that.

That driver if under the influence needs arrested to get him out from behind the wheel. And when he’s release on bail/ pending trial his probation ought to include counseling to see if the person takes responsibility. If they do, the I say sentence them to probation and mandatory counseling and if they fail to appear for that betraying the courts trust that they want to get better, then lick them up and while locked up sign them back up for the 12 step process and counseling while we have them locked up affirming them “ free housing and meals and medical care” until they complete rehabilitation .

That’s not a lack off mercy but Care, that’s forcing someone to get better when they fail to be able to do so under their own control. To me, that is not cruel, it’s being unyielding to force someone to get help because we don’t want to see them come to harm because if a condition that is blocking their ability to get well.

I’m a retired vet and I agree a disabled vet coming home after an injury has to have the medical care needed available to them. DONT GET ME STARTED ON ALL THE WAYS VA COULD BE BETTER, my battery would go dead!

And I agree users ought be viewed just like any other person with a medical issue. As a vet I’ve had associates laugh when there were certain physical things my “ air droppable” knees would not let me do. I grinned, and turned and walked away, knowing **** well if I ever saw anyone attack them I’d still be the first to try to help stop it. Its not fun seeing a friend suffering and it’s **** hard living faced with the choice to force a friend to seek help. My batting average ***** on that account, some I helped and some I fell short. I carry that, and so I know that pain.

[Buzzy]

Agree completely on the last point in that when a person dies the tough thing if first admitting to themselves they have s problem and need help that acceptance of personal responsibility is the paramount point and turning point where availability of counseling and housing needs be provided. We agree on that sir.

Now take the person that uses drugs and drives under the influence. Stopped for tail light out, cop smells the reefer that’s probable cause to believe driver might represent a potential safe driving threat to others. I know neither you or I want a friend, family member, or relative injured because sone one under the influence failed to drive safely. I know we agree on that.

That driver if under the influence needs arrested to get him out from behind the wheel. And when he’s release on bail/ pending trial his probation ought to include counseling to see if the person takes responsibility. If they do, the I say sentence them to probation and mandatory counseling and if they fail to appear for that betraying the courts trust that they want to get better, then lick them up and while locked up sign them back up for the 12 step process and counseling while we have them locked up affirming them “ free housing and meals and medical care” until they complete rehabilitation .

That’s not a lack off mercy but Care, that’s forcing someone to get better when they fail to be able to do so under their own control. To me, that is not cruel, it’s being unyielding to force someone to get help because we don’t want to see them come to harm because if a condition that is blocking their ability to get well.

I’m a retired vet and I agree a disabled vet coming home after an injury has to have the medical care needed available to them. DONT GET ME STARTED ON ALL THE WAYS VA COULD BE BETTER, my battery would go dead!

And I agree users ought be viewed just like any other person with a medical issue. As a vet I’ve had associates laugh when there were certain physical things my “ air droppable” knees would not let me do. I grinned, and turned and walked away, knowing **** well if I ever saw anyone attack them I’d still be the first to try to help stop it. Its not fun seeing a friend suffering and it’s **** hard living faced with the choice to force a friend to seek help. My batting average ***** on that account, some I helped and some I fell short. I carry that, and so I know that pain.

We are getting closer. But still you put too much power in the state to take away someones freedom unwillingly. The probable cause justification is simply something I cannot agree with on any level. They use weed to search because it is the only drug that has a real smell. I had some KILLER weed in my car up in michigan. Stunk to high heaven. Never once did I smoke before or on the road. But I smoke the hell out of it at camp. But with your rationale I should get charged and get sent to prison because of the SMELL. Which is BS.

Making them not illegal would drastically change care and outlook on users. It's a great divider, I've seen the strongest willed men succumb to addiction because the lack of empathy and understanding from our "hollier than thou" society.

Overdoses would not rise, crime would fall and more people would get help. We may be able to save someones friend, but others will say "hes a lost cause because he does (insert here)" which is the wrong mindset.

I've worked with rehab centers, handed out clean needles, any kind of harm reduction I can do within reason I try to do.

We need to look at "root cause" not the symptoms like you mentioned.

[dragmerc]

We need to look at "root cause" not the symptoms like you mentioned.

i think people are wired differently.
the high is better for some people than others.
i don't want to be high.
i want to be in control and know what's going on at all times.
maybe some get high to escape from a miserable life or living conditions.

[ZoraSpook]

We are getting closer. But still you put too much power in the state to take away someones freedom unwillingly. The probable cause justification is simply something I cannot agree with on any level. They use weed to search because it is the only drug that has a real smell. I had some KILLER weed in my car up in michigan. Stunk to high heaven. Never once did I smoke before or on the road. But I smoke the hell out of it at camp. But with your rationale I should get charged and get sent to prison because of the SMELL. Which is BS.

Making them not illegal would drastically change care and outlook on users. It's a great divider, I've seen the strongest willed men succumb to addiction because the lack of empathy and understanding from our "hollier than thou" society.

Overdoses would not rise, crime would fall and more people would get help. We may be able to save someones friend, but others will say "hes a lost cause because he does (insert here)" which is the wrong mindset.

I've worked with rehab centers, handed out clean needles, any kind of harm reduction I can do within reason I try to do.

We need to look at "root cause" not the symptoms like you mentioned.

I agree a person should not get arrested for the smell of weed in the car alone. But if the smell is present and the driver has bloodshot eyes, fails to be responsive to questions, an or fails to safely operate the vehicle. Then is DUI clear and simple.
Sincerely, have you actually seen someone arrested for the presence of smell alone, that was not in possession?

If a person decides to violate the law, then arrest may be warranted. That same person could have avoided arrest by not breaking a law.

We have different experiences. I’ve seen friends with drug issues get help and get clean, while keeping a job, with out ever being arrested for anything.

So if drugs were legal, and more easily acquired, what protects society from those that use, do not seek help, and drive under the influence? Is a better for a user to be arrested for possession and forced into rehab, or do you think it’s better to let selected folks continue to use and risk them drinking under the influence causing a crash, causing injuries, and facing far worse consequences? In my mind treating someone with humanity sometimes means making them make the right decisions.

[Buzzy]

I agree a person should not get arrested for the smell of weed in the car alone. But if the smell is present and the driver has bloodshot eyes, fails to be responsive to questions, an or fails to safely operate the vehicle. Then is DUI clear and simple.
Sincerely, have you actually seen someone arrested for the presence of smell alone, that was not in possession?

If a person decides to violate the law, then arrest may be warranted. That same person could have avoided arrest by not breaking a law.

We have different experiences. I’ve seen friends with drug issues get help and get clean, while keeping a job, with out ever being arrested for anything.

So if drugs were legal, and more easily acquired, what protects society from those that use, do not seek help, and drive under the influence? Is a better for a user to be arrested for possession and forced into rehab, or do you think it’s better to let selected folks continue to use and risk them drinking under the influence causing a crash, causing injuries, and facing far worse consequences? In my mind treating someone with humanity sometimes means making them make the right decisions.

I %100 have witnessed someone get arrested. Cop said he smelled weed. There was a piece the size of a big toenail clipping on the floor. Guy hand rolled cigs and had tobacco, cop said the papers were paraphernalia. Hauled off.

What is there to protect anyone from doing bad things? You are using the same exact rationale as the anti-gun crowd, if we make it illegal then it wont happen. Listen its gonna happen, what protects us is having places to do it and ways to move around the city. Want to know what would protect citizens from impaired drivers?

An actual public transportation system.

But NO ONE wants that because they need their "independence" to drive their car.

[ZoraSpook]

I %100 have witnessed someone get arrested. Cop said he smelled weed. There was a piece the size of a big toenail clipping on the floor. Guy hand rolled cigs and had tobacco, cop said the papers were paraphernalia. Hauled off. (SO HE WAS IN POSSESSION?) and by the way was he found guilty or not?

What is there to protect anyone from doing bad things? You are using the same exact rationale as the anti-gun crowd, if we make it illegal then it wont happen. (NO, IT WILL HAPPEN BUT THOSE THAT DO IT WILL BE PUNISHED, LEARN A LESSON, AND MIGHT NOT DO IT AGAIN)

Public transportation as the key to the drug use and reduced crime rates....hmmmmm:
- If bank robbers had to call a cab to leave the scene of the crime, you may be right.
- If drug users had to wait in line at Walgreens for an RX of their favorite illegal substance, and had to take a cab to get there, then yes, I agree the drug use would slow.
- Hey, what if we had a public buss sytems that would load up all the bank robbers and carry them from bank to bank downtown so we'd have fewer cars on the road, fewer police chases, and fewer vehicles emitting greehouse gasses?
- And what the hey, lets make free drugs avaialble on the busses that carry the robbers so that they can be more comfortable and relaxed when they commit armed robberies, so therefore they the robbers being more relaxed they would be less likely to fire their guns in anger.
- And lets set up a govt fund that pays bank robbers a stimulus check if they rob a bank with a gun and can prove they didn't fire any shots. that would reduce gun violence don't you think.