Annual resident park entrance pass

[idbefishing]

Wasn't the annual pass for last year cost $24? This year it's $36, what's up with that?

[YAZ]

I don't like paying higher fees any more than anyboby else. But one has to look at the big picture. Fishing (and any other outdoor activity) is strictly recreation for 99% of us. Nobody is going to starve if they can't fish or get that deer. If you compare the annual cost of admission (park entrance and lake fee $56.00)) to other forms of recreation, it is still cheap. Heck, it cost my wife, son, and myself, $27.00 to get into the movies the other night. Look at the cost of Pro-sports tickets, concert tickets, race tickets, etc. And in this case, like Slowretrieve said, the more you go, the less it is per trip. The increasing costs of doing business affects the state just like it affects us on a personal level. Therefore, the state has to offset those costs by increasing fees in order to maintain the same level of service. I'm going fishing, and not gripe about the cost.

[MikeAxsom]

YAZ- Thanks for jumping in. It's nice to see someone speak up that really gets it.

[Moose1am]

Is this the same thing that is in this link below?

http://www.ai.org/dnr/parklake/publi...AQ%2012_05.pdf



Regards,

Moose1am

[Slowretrieve]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-06 AT 10:56AM (EST)[/font][p]The gate pass price is not a bad price, even at $36 if you use it much. The camping fees in state parks are admittedly high and I camp quite a bit, but I always go the the federal campgrounds and never to the state.
Realistically, Indiana has always exercised a country club mentality. Money talks. Look at the duck hunting on Geist. No more duck hunting because the sound of shotguns wakes up people whose large and expensive houses line the lake. Last fall they drained Lake Monroe to "make necessary repairs to a culvert." In the process they dropped in a new ramp at Fairfax and they managed to sneak in a significant increase in the number of pleasure boat slips at the marina. How long do you think it will be until that lake is pleasure boats only and the private playground for the country club types?

As for the guy who hates Indiana; we obviously have enough problems dealing with our own crap without yours. If you are not from Indiana, you do not pay taxes here, and since you do not mind taking part in Indiana's outdoor culture, good or bad, you should not mind pitching in a little.

[MikeAxsom]

Hello guys and gals. As I am going to have to deal with some of these issues over the next few months, I’d honestly like to have some input from you about this user fee thing. Please note that I am not the one to set fees at our facility at West Boggs; but I do have an opportunity to make recommendations and offer advice to the Board that does. What I’d appreciate from you all is some answers to questions that always seem to get lost in the tall grass on these discussions.

For example, if the new state annual pass fee is too high, what is the right rate? Whatever you think that rate should be, why do you think it is the right rate? In the discussion about the $24 fee as compared to the new $36 fee, it is obvious that most people buying that pass would prefer the lower rate; but how do you know $24 is not also too much? If you support the idea of raising the fee to $36, how do you know that is enough?

If all of a sudden it were your responsibility to make these decisions, what do you think is the best way to set recreation user fees?

A: Set the fee low to allow maximum use, and make up for operation, maintenance, replacement and development costs with tax dollars,

B: Set the fee as high as the market will bear, and make up and operational, maintenance, replacement and development costs with tax dollars,

C: Set the fee at the level necessary to cover only the cost of operations, and cover costs for maintenance, replacement and development with tax dollars,

D: Set the fee at the level necessary to cover the costs of operations, maintenance and replacement and minimize the use of tax dollars,

E: Set the fee at a level suggested by a few people who show up at a meeting to voice their opinion and not worry about all the business details.

Obviously there is a lot of room for opinion in this discussion, and I’d like to hear them all, as long as they’re sincere.

[Moose1am]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-06 AT 02:08PM (EST)[/font][p]From the users point of view the less expensive the entry fee is the better.

I guess the fees charge for any public facilty will depend on the cost involved in running the facility and who uses it.

Someone has to pay for the upkeep and such of any park. Whether it's the taxpayers of that area or the park users or a combination of both.

But most people would rather pay as low a fee as possible. IMHO.

[MikeAxsom]

I'm not sure where your reply needs to be placed in the mix, moose1am. I'm sure that at some level, we all enjoy feeling like we got something for nothing, or even a little more than we expected for what we paid. But on some other level of how we perceive value, I personally am less likely to compalign if I pay $15 or $20 for an excellent steak dinner, than I am to complaign about say paying $5 for a really bad one. Are you saying that peole who enjoy the outdoors would prefer to not have to pay for what it costs to have those services avaialble, or that they would just perfer that someone else pay for it for them?

[Moose1am]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-06 AT 04:25PM (EST)[/font][p]No I am not saying that we should not have to pay. What I am saying is that we should only have to pay the the bare minimum without anything extra to provide the budget to give us the service. More and better service require more payment sure.

I don't fish lakes that have entrance fees very much these days. I found some lakes that are within 10 min of my house and I save money on gas by fishing them these days. These are state lakes but there is no charge to lauch or visit the lake. Our tax dollars funds these lakes.

I fish the state fish and recreational lakes that are free. I'll bet that more peole start fishing them in the future too.

I pay my taxes and every time I buy a fishing license or register my boat I support the DNR here in IN. I do my fair share and I am not asking for a free lunch.

[MikeAxsom]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-06 AT 08:49AM (EST)[/font][p][font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-06 AT 08:43*AM (EST)[/font]

Moose1am- I realize that the majority of people who like the outdoors, hunting and fishing, are pretty solid citizens and don’t really want or expect that free lunch. But having been involved in these issues now for almost 34 years, I can tell you that most of them also have no idea of how all those favorite places came to be, or how they stay favorite places. In your post for example, you made the statement that you felt sportsmen should only pay the bare minimum for the service you receive. I obviously agree with that; but we may disagree on what the bare minimum is.

This thread began because several people here seem to be bent out of shape over one of IDNR’s fees that is raising from $24 to $36. Now that may or may not be too low or too high or about right. I don’t have nearly enough information about what costs that fee is supposed to be covering. But the people who are saying it is too high don’t have any information either, other than that it “seems” to high. I’m sure when it is all said and done we’d all rather that DNR make sound, reasonable business smart decisions about how to manage our various resources, rather than resort to voodoo, tarot cards or just hunches. I dare say that if they were to set the fee rates by asking everyone what they wanted to pay, they’d be out of business in a year or two.

That bare minimum you are willing to pay has to include the direct cost of the service you receive, the paper in the restroom near the ramp, the cost of someone to clean that restroom, the cost of the secretary that keeps track of the wages of the person who cleans the restroom, the blacktop road on the way into the restroom and ramp, the water and sewer bill for that restroom, the electricity for the light you want to help load your boat after dark, and on and on and on. And 100% of the infrastructure in all those public properties you visit will have to be replaced, remodeled, or refurbished every 10 or 20 years. That cost is also part of the bare minimum in a responsible management plan.

There is no free lunch. Period. Those stories about how it is free to get into a park in Ohio is a misperception. If you get in without paying it’s only because someone else was forced to pay those costs for you. That shouldn't make any of us proud. Taxes are not the state’s money. That is our money that the state decides how we are going to spend. If you get a free lunch it can only be at someone else’s expense, and if a person doesn’t understand that they can’t really expect to be listened to very much when they talk about what the “gumit” should do to make fishing better or cheaper or easier.

I’m sure this is going to tick some of the guys here off and cause more comments about the Mike Axsom show, etc., but it really gets old listening to people rant and run down some of the very best, most dedicated people I know, who work in resource management; when the complainers really don’t have any answers either. As someone smarter than I once said, “Any damned fool can be against something. What are you FOR?”

[jimmy701]

Why dont we get the sales tax on the boats,tackle,bait,etc. to go towards the dnr?These are all things used for the recreation.It should go back into it and that would lower fees for everyone who spends the money to do these things.

[MikeAxsom]

I don't know why we don't do that. Probably because those dollars are already committed somewhere else and moving them would cause some else's ox to be gored. The idea is a good one though and has a lot of precedent elsewhere; although it normally works as a form of excise tax rather than a sales tax. The best example might be the Pittman-Robertson Act which was a sportsman initiated bit of federal legislation several decades back. P-R places an excise tax on most firearms, ammunition and archery equipment some in America. The tax is actually placed on the items at the manufacturing level, and passed on in the purchase price. If you ever bought a box of .22 cartridges, or a new bow, or a shotgun, you paid that tax and probably didn’t even know it. P-R funds are distributed by the federal government back out to the states, and are the revenue source for a great many state wildlife management programs, including the hunters education program. This came about because responsible sportsmen in our fathers’ and grandfathers’ generations were determined to make sure the outdoor heritage did not fade away from our penny pinching human nature. It is my belief that some of those fee increases that drive some sportsmen nuts today are also responsible and necessary for the future of the pursuits we all love.