Indiana tournament fees

[crappie66]

They are using public funded boat launches, they are using public water, they are catching public funded fish that are a result of our fisheries management.

The arguement about how they help the economy is void, fact is 99% dont contribute to it. They buy their gas in their hometown. Very few stock up on baits on the way to a tourny. Seldom do they stay at local hotels, or eat at local establishments.

I am actually 100% for bass tournaments, just think that the fees are a small price to pay when you look at some of the payouts.

[mikedaleo]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-06 AT 07:47PM (EST)[/font][p]How are the fees that they are talking about a small price? The fees per fisherman are very small, but the fees that they are talking about charging the organization are rediculous. I suppose you would vote for a tax increase as well? The ramp is paid for by my launching permit every year, the fish that I release by my fishing license, and the water that I use by my Indiana state taxes. You want to pay more? Send them a check with a big thanks from the rest of us!

Also, What tourney organization do you fish with Crappie? I fish with several and I can tell you that myself and most of the other I fish with need food, drinks, and GAS when going to or leaving the lake. We have also used lodging at many of the lakes in Indiana. What memo did you get that told you that 99% do not help the economy?

As for "public funded", I contribute, you contribute, and so does every other member of our state that does not even visit the lake. Taxes fund most of these fisheries.

[crappie66]

>[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-06
>AT 07:47*PM (EST)[/font]
>
>How are the fees that they
>are talking about a small
>price? The fees per
>fisherman are very small, but
>the fees that they are
>talking about charging the organization
>are rediculous. I suppose
>you would vote for a
>tax increase as well?
>The ramp is paid for
>by my launching permit every
>year, the fish that I
>release by my fishing license,
>and the water that I
>use by my Indiana state
>taxes. You want to
>pay more? Send them
>a check with a big
>thanks from the rest of
>us!
>
>Also, What tourney organization do you
>fish with Crappie? I
>fish with several and I
>can tell you that myself
>and most of the other
>I fish with need food,
>drinks, and GAS when going
>to or leaving the lake.
> We have also used
>lodging at many of the
>lakes in Indiana. What
>memo did you get that
>told you that 99% do
>not help the economy?
>
>As for "public funded", I contribute,
>you contribute, and so does
>every other member of our
>state that does not even
>visit the lake. Taxes
>fund most of these fisheries.
>


The 99% number was exagerated, however, I will still say a majority do not contribute to the local economies. As stated before most people fill up their gas tanks in their hometown before going to the lake. A serious tourny angler does not stop to pick up lures on the way, they have this stuff prepared well in advance. The hotels/motels won't see an impact, if it is near a lake they will be full regardless.

No matter what anybody says the tournies do have payouts, so people are profiting. The lake is owned by all of us, so you are using my property to make a buck, so I think the fees are a good thing to an extent, either set aside an organization only fee, or a per boat fee, but earmark the money for DNR only use, not this general fund #####. Your arguement about the ramp being paid for already by your other fees, well I could say the road to your driveway is paid for by my taxes too, so I can drive on over and set up a yard sale on your property to make a few dollars.

When you break it down the fees will only add about $5 per person, which isn't much. If it is alot and money is tight, then one might reconsider fishing the tournies, afterall it is a form of gambling, why gamble if money is tight?

Pay the small fees, forget about it, and go fishing.

[mikedaleo]

Crappie, Money is not tight, the question is, where do we draw the line. I can tell by your posts that you are not concerned with the line since you think you have earned the right by paying taxes to hold a yardsale on my private property. I don't think the per angler fee is a big deal, but it is another fee. What I do think is a big deal is the fee that is vague at this time for the organization to apply:

"The proposed fees include a non-refundable application fee for all tournaments held on state waters, which the Natural Resources Commission (NRC) approved at between $20 and $750. Also proposed is a $5 per boat user fee for tournament anglers. The user fee would be based on the number of estimated boats listed on an organization's tournament application, not how many boats actually show up. "

When the top payout for a large tourney is around $1000 and my fee to enter is around $100, where do you think the $750 will come from? This in turn will lower the turnout for these events.

I agree with one thing you have said and that is that you have the right to drive from your house to mine and back. You have paid your taxes to use the road and hopefully your registration, perhaps we should allow I-65 to become a toll road to since we all use that resource?

[bullrdr6]

Your argument about the road to my house is an invalid point. We use the ramps that are paid for by the state so if you want to use the roads that come to my house that are paid for by the state then feel free to come set up a yard sale on the road in front of my house.

The $5 is not a big deal but on top of all the other fees that anglers are being forced to pay to use the same waters that other fishermen and pleasure boaters are using is excessive and almost discrimination. The biggest problem we all see is there is not any improvements being done or nothing added to benefit the recreational or tournament fishing. I can compare to other states but if their concerned about tournaments and released fish why not provide a release boat like other states do. All you have to do is make a phone call in other states and they'll either have a release boat or a release truck their for your use.

Charlie

[idbefishing]

I guessed that's is part of the reason why the town of French Lick build a new casino because without tournament bass fishing at Patoka they are screwed. You really don't know much about the tournament scene Crappie, so quit talking about it. 99% don't contributes? don't spend money on local gas, hotel, food, etc..? give me a break. I spend a little over 300 bucks this past weekend in French Lick and that's just me. If you want to, call the Huck's gas station, Lane's Motel, restaurants in French Lick and ask them what is the different in revenue on a tournament versus non-tournament weekend. I wonder if this fees apply to all the natural lakes up north.

[SLIMSHAD]

Payouts?? How many of you all get payouts? And about the fisheries management, at Monroe they let all the water out of the lake when the fish were spawning. I saw bass with their backs out of water trying to stay on nests. I also pay several fees when I tag and register my boat and trailer. Then I have to pay for a launching fee, entry fee, and oh yeah, fishing license. I'm all fee'd out.....

[Moose1am]

Is Monroe run by the Corp of Engineers? DNR does the fish management but they can't control the US GOVERMENT operations. State's manage their wildlife as best they can. But they can't help it if the **** Feds screwed up the spawn by lowing the lake levels at the wrong time. The Corps are there for flood control not to manage fish. I guess people and preventing floods still comes first with the Fed Govt.


Regards,

Moose1am

[meathead]

Tournament fishermen already generate MILLIONS in funds for fisheries management. Have you heard of Wallop-Breax? We pay taxes on all that expensive fishing tackle that should come right back to the resource (even though most probably gets wasted in our bloated beauracratic system). One tournament bass fishermen generates far more in tax revenue than 20 run of the mill worm dunkers (not saying we're the smartest lot, but we do spend the money, just ask my wife).

Why should fishermen legally catching bass have to pay extra? They are following all of the laws. Most team tournaments only allow 5 to 8 fish for a two man team, this is less than the legal limit. Big freaking deal if there is a small amount of money being passed back and forth! It's not like people are getting rich fishing these state tourneys.

What if fifty guys got together off-site threw in 100 bucks and brought all the bass back to the organizer's house where they were weighed. After that the group fillets all the bass and has a big fish fry. That would be totally legal and there would not be a fee even though every bass would be killed! What would that do to the resource? IT IS LEGAL TO KILL BASS, YET TOURNAMENT FISHERMEN RELEASE THERE FISH AND HAVE A MINIMAL IMPACT ON THE RESOUCE. LOOK AT THE DATA AND FACTS. DON'T ACT ON EMOTION LIKE SOME WACKO ENVIRONMENTALIST!


We keep throwing more and more money into bass fishing in this state and yet this state probably has some of the poorest bass fishing around.

[Moose1am]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-06 AT 09:44AM (EST)[/font][p]Meathead.

Your statement about tournament fishermen having minimum impact on the resource is hard to prove or disprove. Let me explain why I say this.

Each and every time we hook a fish it does have some type of impact on that fish. Not that it always will harm the fish but that fish will surely remember that bait and may avoid it the net time. That means that each time a fish is caught it may learn to avoid that bait the next time. Fish are not that dumb that they can' remember a bait. That may be why each year we have to use a new HOT bait. LOL This helps the bait salesmen big time.

Now people that take home the fish they catch to eat also reduce or harm the resource. But they don't waste the fish, they eat it. But what happens to the fish after they are released at the end of the day. Lets look at what the fish sees after he get hooked. He is dragged though the water sometime out of very deep water. They go from being under 2 Atmosphere of pressure in 33 ft of water to 1 amt at the surface. They are taken out of their oxygen supply and out of the cooler water and then exposed to no dissolved oxygen and hot air. The gases inside their swim bladders expands to twice it's volume. Boyle's and Charles Law apply here. The air inside the fish also gets warmer so it expands even more. The swim bladder may be ruptured and the fish will die. The fish's blood gases are suddenly exposed to warmer temp and half the water pressure and the gases bubble out of solution creating the bends in the fish. The fish suffers tremendous stresses. They may still look like they are swimming in the live well but they may well be on their last leg and you don't know it. Now you bring them up and then sometimes bang them into the boat causing bruising to their bodies. Internal organs can be damaged easily in this manner. Bleeding internally they may die later that day from complication. Also we grab them and remove the protective slime coating from their scales. This allows bacteria, fungi and other micro-organism access to the fish's skin now. Without the protective slime coat to avoid bacterial infection the fish may also die later of a bacterial infection. Now in a tournament you start out early in the day and may not end up at the weigh in until later that day. 3 pm or even later or maybe earlier. That's a long time for a lot of fish to be in a live well. They fish will be banged around inside the live well . They are not used to being in such confined spaces and they have to learn not to thrust their tail too hard of they will be speeding into the sides of the live well. I have put new fish into my aquarium and watched them do this at times. It takes them a while to learn where the glass it and to not bump into it. Now modern live wells have recirculating water systems. They can pump out old water from inside the live well that contains lots of ammonia waste and nitrates and replace that old water with fresh water. But where is the intake for the new fresh water at on a boat? Its on the transom most of the time. That is where the boat sites on the water's surface. You catch bass in water that's 65 deg F to 75 deg F 33ft down or even at 15 ft depths and then put the fish in 85 deg F surface waters that may or may not have much oxygen in it. Now you can supply dissolved oxygen to the live well easily enough. But how do you cool the live well waters down. Here is how I do it. I attack a 7 ft long 1/2" ID pvc pipe to the intake of my live well and then hang that pipe down into the cooler subsurface waters. I also freeze plastic bottles of water in the freezer before I go fishing and then throw them into a ice chest. I can then add a frozen water bottle to the live well in the hot summer months to cool the water down. Remember that cold water holds much more dissolved oxygen than hot water. Think of a foot ball player who just made a long run for a touchdown. You may see him sitting along the sidelines after that play sucking on a bottle of oxygen. Fish need to be refreshed too after they are stressed.

And finally lets look at the weigh in process. We take the fish out of the live well and then carry them to the scales either by hand or in big plastic bags of water. Again the fish are all put inside the same bag without much water. And it's hot water again. The fish are sliding up against each other and rubbing more slime off their scales. The fish bang against each other and thrash around inside the bag. Further bruising may occur. Then they are taken out of the bag of water and held up to show off for the cameras. How long depends on how big the crowd is and if there are cameras around. Got to get that picture. right? This entire time we should all be holding our breaths as the fish can't breath when it's out of the water. We then put them inside a bucket again with any water and then put a heavy lid on top of them so they can't flop around and get us all slimy. We have to wait for the scales to settle down and give us a good reading and then we take the fish out of the box and put them back into the hot water inside the transport bag. Now some transport bags have air bubble systems attached to them. That is what we all need to have in our boats. Then we take the fish back down to the closest ramp and release them near the dock in SHALLOW hot water at the end of the day. And we wonder if the fish actually make it though the next week?

Now if the fish is going to go though all this do you still think that it's unharmed and that these bass fishing tournaments have no effect on the fish populations?

Bottom line is if you catch a fish and don't eat it and it dies you have harmed the resource for the next fishermen. There will be less fish for him or her to catch the next time they go fishing.

Now I have given a summer time example where water temp difference between 33 ft deep water and the surface waters are at the extreme ends. Summer bass fishing tournaments do have an impact on the fish populations. You just are not seeing it I guess.

Now lets play the David Letterman Shaw's will if float game. Does a dying bass float to the surface before the turtles can eat it?

I did watch the FLW Red fish Tournament on TV last weekend. There they use a bucket of water that was pre-weighted and they put the fish in the water to be weighted. This is a good system that helps protect the red fish form oxygen depletion during the weigh in process. I wish that the bass fishing tournament guys would adopt this system for their weigh ins.

The scales would have to have a larger weighing capacity and the ability to tare the weight of the bucket and water before adding the fish but that's easy to do. Just get a heavier duty weighing scales and keep the fish in a bucket of water during the weigh in process. That way the fish are out of the water for much shorter periods of time and then they have a better change of surviving the tournaments and being caught by another fishermen the next week.

Here is my bottom line. I want to catch fish when I spend all the money on my boat and fishing tackle. I like most don't like to fish lakes that don't have any good fishing. You can't catch fish out of a lake that has very little fish left in it.

I want to make sure that the fish resource is protected so that more people can have the pleasure of catching some fish and having a good day on the lake. Having fun and relaxing is what I desire. I really don't care if the fish feels pain or any of all that. Hell I catch, kill, clean and eat fish and have been doing that all my entire life. I was catching bluegill when I was still a small toddler. After 50 something years of catching and eating fish and game I have no willies from the sight of blood or guts. But I do wish to preserve my fishing fun for the next generation.

I think that the IN DNR guys are the correct one's to do the research and come up with the rules and regulations to get this job done. Everyone can't be making up their own rules as that will never work. I'll leave it to the professionals to make up the right fishing regulations for all the different lakes. They may not be perfect in everything they do but they do a pretty **** good job overall given what they have budgeted to get the job done.


Regards,

Moose1am

[MikeAxsom]

I know my input to this issue is not often welcomed on this board, but I never was one to shut up just because someone didn’t like what I had to say. Anyway, as West Boggs is almost always brought up in these discussions, I’m going to again try to throw in some logical responses to some of the rhetoric.

The comment about Wallop-Breax being a source of revenue is factual. The comment about those funds being wasted is an opinion. Using the two in the same context is a propaganda tactic that serves little in getting to the truth of these issues.

“Why should fishermen legally catching bass have to pay extra?” I’ll not try to speak for IDNR, but at West Boggs they don’t have to. Our tournament permit fee is for a permit to conduct a tournament for money, which is a commercial activity on public lands. We also have permit requirements for such things like vendors selling food, setting up trade shows, flea markets, etc. The point is that conducting any commercial activity on public land is not within the intent in the setting of gate fees, launch fees, etc. The argument that an angler will have to pay somehow extra for the permit holder to recoup the permit fee is little different that arguing that a person would have to pay a little more for a hot dog because the vendor had to pay a permit fee.

[meathead]

How much in additional fees/taxes is that hot dog vendor paying into managing the resource? When he buys a buys his hot dog cooker is there a tax on that that goes to fish and wildlife?