Indiana tournament fees

[bullrdr6]

Look at all the revenue generated at the local business the last month or so down there due to these tournaments. Not only the competitors but also the people down there watching. I know personally I have spent several hundred dollars in that are in the last month on gas, hotels, food and tackle.

KY realizes how much revenue can and is generated by those lakes and they keep advertising and putting the lakes in the public view so it is even more utilized. They also put money and resources back into the area for improvements at the ramps and other areas.

Charlie

[bassman409]

Hey crappie, 99% of the people in my club always "help" the local economy. We stay at the local hotels and camp grounds.... We buy food, gas and anything else we happen to need. So I suggest before you start bad mouthing me about not helping any local economies you get your facts straight.
Kevin B.

[MikeAxsom]

Again I have to qualify my comments to only reflect my experience at one lake in one local economy, and I have no idea if this holds true everywhere. But some of the interactions we see with economic impact is often missed by people arguing in favor of tournaments.

Tournament anglers do often contribute to a local economy, when they buy goods and services in those local stores. There is no reason to believe that they do that more than so other anglers. To the contrary, they tend to be more organized and better prepared; which normally has them fully equipped when they leave home. Even these ongoing debates about fees indicate that they are extremely cost conscious. They purchase very little live bait or equipment from local bait/tackle shops, and they often get into the area in the wee hours before many other stores are open. Then they spend the day on the water for the tournament and when that is over they head for home. If they come from more than a few hours away, they do use a hotel or campground, normally for one night.

Recreational anglers, on the other hand, tend to be less organized overall, less focused on cost, bring more people and have longer stays in the area. They stay for 2 or 3 days on average, filling campsites and hotel rooms, and they sometimes buy some much at local food stores that they sell out of some items. Other local stores sell large volumes of low end fishing gear aimed at recreational users and kids. They also tend to want to experience the local restaurants, tourism venues and even things like auctions and flea markets.

Another thing that some of the pro-tournament arguments often leave out is that tournaments tend to discourage recreational anglers from using the same lake at the same time. We can show from our records that if we have more tournaments we will have fewer recreational users. When we regulate tournaments and have fewer, we gain recreational users. So, for all these reasons and others, it needs to be made clear that while tourism revenue generated from fishing is a very big deal to lake area economies, it is not accurate to say that the majority of this is due to tournaments. It is a common tactic in these discussions to try to use the total fishing tourism dollar figure for the pro-tournament argument, when a great deal of that money comes from people who just like to take the family fishing.

Does that mean we are anti-tournament? Not at all, as we have about 30 per year. But we are aware that many people promoting more tournaments at the expense of other users are not always telling the whole story.

[idbefishing]

One lake, one local economy like you said Mike but then you contradicted yourself at the end by talking about "pro tournament" that to me, is you talking about "pro tournament in general. People who comes in to your local area that are stock up at home maybe because there isn't a place where they can stop in at the "wee hour" to purchase stuff.

[MikeAxsom]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-06 AT 08:56AM (EST)[/font][p]Perhaps you're right and I should choose a term other than pro-tournament to describe people for want more tournaments as opposed to those who seem to want fewer. I meant Pro as opposed to Anti, and not Pro as in Professional. But my intent there at the end was to point out the tendency for people trying to make the case that tournaments contribute to local economies by citing total tourism dollars to support that position. In our experience here that is not justified.

I also think the tournament community is not well served to allow the hottest heads in their ranks to force the argument to be that they are more worthwhile than recreational users. That will place the whole issue in a political context, and the tournament anglers are going to be badly outnumbered there.

[Moose1am]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-06 AT 09:44AM (EST)[/font][p]Meathead.

Your statement about tournament fishermen having minimum impact on the resource is hard to prove or disprove. Let me explain why I say this.

Each and every time we hook a fish it does have some type of impact on that fish. Not that it always will harm the fish but that fish will surely remember that bait and may avoid it the net time. That means that each time a fish is caught it may learn to avoid that bait the next time. Fish are not that dumb that they can' remember a bait. That may be why each year we have to use a new HOT bait. LOL This helps the bait salesmen big time.

Now people that take home the fish they catch to eat also reduce or harm the resource. But they don't waste the fish, they eat it. But what happens to the fish after they are released at the end of the day. Lets look at what the fish sees after he get hooked. He is dragged though the water sometime out of very deep water. They go from being under 2 Atmosphere of pressure in 33 ft of water to 1 amt at the surface. They are taken out of their oxygen supply and out of the cooler water and then exposed to no dissolved oxygen and hot air. The gases inside their swim bladders expands to twice it's volume. Boyle's and Charles Law apply here. The air inside the fish also gets warmer so it expands even more. The swim bladder may be ruptured and the fish will die. The fish's blood gases are suddenly exposed to warmer temp and half the water pressure and the gases bubble out of solution creating the bends in the fish. The fish suffers tremendous stresses. They may still look like they are swimming in the live well but they may well be on their last leg and you don't know it. Now you bring them up and then sometimes bang them into the boat causing bruising to their bodies. Internal organs can be damaged easily in this manner. Bleeding internally they may die later that day from complication. Also we grab them and remove the protective slime coating from their scales. This allows bacteria, fungi and other micro-organism access to the fish's skin now. Without the protective slime coat to avoid bacterial infection the fish may also die later of a bacterial infection. Now in a tournament you start out early in the day and may not end up at the weigh in until later that day. 3 pm or even later or maybe earlier. That's a long time for a lot of fish to be in a live well. They fish will be banged around inside the live well . They are not used to being in such confined spaces and they have to learn not to thrust their tail too hard of they will be speeding into the sides of the live well. I have put new fish into my aquarium and watched them do this at times. It takes them a while to learn where the glass it and to not bump into it. Now modern live wells have recirculating water systems. They can pump out old water from inside the live well that contains lots of ammonia waste and nitrates and replace that old water with fresh water. But where is the intake for the new fresh water at on a boat? Its on the transom most of the time. That is where the boat sites on the water's surface. You catch bass in water that's 65 deg F to 75 deg F 33ft down or even at 15 ft depths and then put the fish in 85 deg F surface waters that may or may not have much oxygen in it. Now you can supply dissolved oxygen to the live well easily enough. But how do you cool the live well waters down. Here is how I do it. I attack a 7 ft long 1/2" ID pvc pipe to the intake of my live well and then hang that pipe down into the cooler subsurface waters. I also freeze plastic bottles of water in the freezer before I go fishing and then throw them into a ice chest. I can then add a frozen water bottle to the live well in the hot summer months to cool the water down. Remember that cold water holds much more dissolved oxygen than hot water. Think of a foot ball player who just made a long run for a touchdown. You may see him sitting along the sidelines after that play sucking on a bottle of oxygen. Fish need to be refreshed too after they are stressed.

And finally lets look at the weigh in process. We take the fish out of the live well and then carry them to the scales either by hand or in big plastic bags of water. Again the fish are all put inside the same bag without much water. And it's hot water again. The fish are sliding up against each other and rubbing more slime off their scales. The fish bang against each other and thrash around inside the bag. Further bruising may occur. Then they are taken out of the bag of water and held up to show off for the cameras. How long depends on how big the crowd is and if there are cameras around. Got to get that picture. right? This entire time we should all be holding our breaths as the fish can't breath when it's out of the water. We then put them inside a bucket again with any water and then put a heavy lid on top of them so they can't flop around and get us all slimy. We have to wait for the scales to settle down and give us a good reading and then we take the fish out of the box and put them back into the hot water inside the transport bag. Now some transport bags have air bubble systems attached to them. That is what we all need to have in our boats. Then we take the fish back down to the closest ramp and release them near the dock in SHALLOW hot water at the end of the day. And we wonder if the fish actually make it though the next week?

Now if the fish is going to go though all this do you still think that it's unharmed and that these bass fishing tournaments have no effect on the fish populations?

Bottom line is if you catch a fish and don't eat it and it dies you have harmed the resource for the next fishermen. There will be less fish for him or her to catch the next time they go fishing.

Now I have given a summer time example where water temp difference between 33 ft deep water and the surface waters are at the extreme ends. Summer bass fishing tournaments do have an impact on the fish populations. You just are not seeing it I guess.

Now lets play the David Letterman Shaw's will if float game. Does a dying bass float to the surface before the turtles can eat it?

I did watch the FLW Red fish Tournament on TV last weekend. There they use a bucket of water that was pre-weighted and they put the fish in the water to be weighted. This is a good system that helps protect the red fish form oxygen depletion during the weigh in process. I wish that the bass fishing tournament guys would adopt this system for their weigh ins.

The scales would have to have a larger weighing capacity and the ability to tare the weight of the bucket and water before adding the fish but that's easy to do. Just get a heavier duty weighing scales and keep the fish in a bucket of water during the weigh in process. That way the fish are out of the water for much shorter periods of time and then they have a better change of surviving the tournaments and being caught by another fishermen the next week.

Here is my bottom line. I want to catch fish when I spend all the money on my boat and fishing tackle. I like most don't like to fish lakes that don't have any good fishing. You can't catch fish out of a lake that has very little fish left in it.

I want to make sure that the fish resource is protected so that more people can have the pleasure of catching some fish and having a good day on the lake. Having fun and relaxing is what I desire. I really don't care if the fish feels pain or any of all that. Hell I catch, kill, clean and eat fish and have been doing that all my entire life. I was catching bluegill when I was still a small toddler. After 50 something years of catching and eating fish and game I have no willies from the sight of blood or guts. But I do wish to preserve my fishing fun for the next generation.

I think that the IN DNR guys are the correct one's to do the research and come up with the rules and regulations to get this job done. Everyone can't be making up their own rules as that will never work. I'll leave it to the professionals to make up the right fishing regulations for all the different lakes. They may not be perfect in everything they do but they do a pretty **** good job overall given what they have budgeted to get the job done.


Regards,

Moose1am

[bullrdr6]

Mike,

Speaking for the same lake you are I can tell you on the mornings that I've been on that lake and in the area there are a couple of businesses that definitely benefit from fishermen in general and definitely tournament anglers. I know myself and a couple of others that always stop at the same gas station for gas, sandwiches, snacks and a coffee refill before heading to the lake. We also stop at the local McDonalds or Wendy's on the way home. I can't say the tournament anglers stop more but if I didn't stop there 20-30 times a year that would definitely be some lost income.

Most of the time I don't buy the bulk of my tackle at the local tackle shops but very often I will stop in and usually buy 1 or 2 things I need to replace others or just try something new.

Charlie

[BigDust]

Hey Crappie, why don't you do some research before you open your mouth, or in this case type with your fingers.

If there is a 150 boat field, usually there are 10 places that are paid out. That is 6.67% getting a paycheck. So about 6% broke even or made a profit. BUT EVERY TOURNAMENT FISHERMAN MAKES MONEY.

I live in Indy. If I fish at Monroe or Patoka, I'd say 1/2 the field will stay at campgrounds, cabins, or hotels...Probably more. To pull a boat with a pick-up truck, that's usually about 10-12 miles/gallon. Gas is approx $2.85/gallon. Patoka is approx 120 miles away, at $2.85/gallon which would be about 12 gallons, that's about $70 round trip. Oh yeah, then gas for the boat and oil for the boat, so about $30. Then about $50 for the hotel/cabin/campsite for the weekend, then food which I'll say $40. Oh crap, I forgot about the $100 entry fee to the tourney. The weekend probably would cost about...$300.00.


I don't think it's the increase we're upset about, but how the DNR and Conservation Officers go after tournament fisherman and fisherman in general. We already pay a lot in taxes and fees, I think we want proof and what is needed and where the money is goin.

They want a piece of our profit, well as I just explained above, WHAT (*^%*&^*) PROFIT. We do this for fun and the competition.

This is kind of on the same grip, but why is it when I'm fishing at Monroe and there are 100 ski boats around with people swimming and drinking, I get the CO to check my license and make sure I have the proper floataion device, but he doesn't check 1 ski boat? IT'S A *&^#%&# CONSPIRACY

[TI]

Mike and others that don't understand the money spent by tounament anglers in the local economies where tournaments are held......It would make a huge impact to the local economy if tournament organizers decided to not fish IDNR Lakes and fished on other bodies of water or out of state. For instance, if a central Indiana tournament angler bypassed French Lick or Jasper (Patoka) and went to the Ohio River or even into Kentucky (Taylorsville, KY Lake, etc.) instead, so does their money. I use central Indiana for this example because of the distance to travel adds to the overall expense of the trip. One could simply call Hucks or Lanes or Tony's Marina in French Lick to get a perspective.

- Most tournament anglers traveling with boat in tow simply don't like to travel with full tanks in the boat because of the weight. They will fill up at the local gas station.

- Most tournament anglers show up at least a day in advance to scout. Therefore they seek a place to stay (hotel or camp). Or, they make a trip down the weekend prior or even a day during the week.

- Most tournament anglers go out to eat when they're in town. I bet Judy's at Tony's Marina would not survive if not for the breakfast crowd from tournament anglers.

- Granted, tournament anglers aren't buying bait....But if they need something, which happens quite often, they'll be at the local bait store spending the money to get what they need.

Referencing these category's for the tournament anglers spend, then let's do a little math experiment. A Hoosier Open will have 180 boats at Patoka in late March/early April. That's 360 tournament anglers (One important note before we move forward....those 360 tournament anglers would not even be there if there wasn't a tournament.). Conservatively 50% of the field, 90 boats or 180 anglers, travel more than an hour to the tournament.

+ If 50% of those boats that travel more than an hour, 45 boats, needs gas at least once during their stay, and the average fill up in the boat is $50 (low estimate), then that is $2,250. We'll keep tow vehicle gas out of the exercise but we all know it's being purchased in the area.

+ If those 90 anglers (45 boats with 2 anglers in each) need a place to stay and the average hotel is $50/night for 2 people and they stay at least one night, then that is another $2,250.

+ If those 90 anglers spend $15 (low) on food, drinks and supplies for at least one day, then that is another $1,350.

= I used a very conservative 25% of the full field staying one night, one tank of gas in the boat and one day's worth of supplies and you get a jolt of $5,850 into the local economy on a date when there are no pleasure boaters even considering getting their boats out of storage. Plus, this accounts for only one tournament organization per weekend. In the spring there are typically tournaments being ran on Saturday and Sunday. ~ $10,000/weekend.

[hardestyeric]

Moose,
I never once questioned the DNR's effectiveness or methods. I was simply inquiring as to what "extra" fees where involved in tournaments. I have NEVER seen a DNR person standing around at a weigh in. I haven't seen them doing their surveys during tourneys. If they were doing tourneys, couldn't they simply obtain a copy of the weigh slips instead of standing around until the middle of the night, as you said?
They are going to have to do all that you mentioned whether there are tourneys or not. They still need to keep close tabs on the dynamics of the lakes.
Your explanation doesn't convince me at all. I still don't understand how a 100 boat tourney every weekend is adding to the debt of the DNR.
Eric H.

[mikedaleo]

Crappie, Money is not tight, the question is, where do we draw the line. I can tell by your posts that you are not concerned with the line since you think you have earned the right by paying taxes to hold a yardsale on my private property. I don't think the per angler fee is a big deal, but it is another fee. What I do think is a big deal is the fee that is vague at this time for the organization to apply:

"The proposed fees include a non-refundable application fee for all tournaments held on state waters, which the Natural Resources Commission (NRC) approved at between $20 and $750. Also proposed is a $5 per boat user fee for tournament anglers. The user fee would be based on the number of estimated boats listed on an organization's tournament application, not how many boats actually show up. "

When the top payout for a large tourney is around $1000 and my fee to enter is around $100, where do you think the $750 will come from? This in turn will lower the turnout for these events.

I agree with one thing you have said and that is that you have the right to drive from your house to mine and back. You have paid your taxes to use the road and hopefully your registration, perhaps we should allow I-65 to become a toll road to since we all use that resource?

[Danny]

>I don't know. Probably not. I
>do know that our overall
>revenue from fishing and boating
>has grown by almost 80%
>since we began to regulate
>tournaments. Do you have any
>ideas about how we might
>get that back from tournament
>anglers or promoters if we
>removed those regulations?

Mike, this comment reminded me of something my departed dad used to tell me. After he retired from the Postal Service, he worked for the KY Depeart of Transportation. He specifically worked on the Toll roads. He told me he once got a look at the operational budget and was assounded to learn that KY paid out $1 for every 50¢ the took in.

So how did your remark remind me of this? I was considering the statement that IN wanted to recoup their cost of tournaments, you mention relatively new regulation of the tournaments. Sounds like the department is now trying to find a way to pay for the department that is regulating the tournaments.

Is that so?

Danny