Richman (18 posts)
Jul-25-05, 05:28 PM (EST)
"For the Record, Jim"
Since the original thread was locked....here is the increase in trophy heads out of Ohio within the last 10 years
Ohio B&C entries from the 3rd edition of
Records of North American Whitetail Deer to the 4th edition:
3rd edition (1995) 4th edition (2003) % change
Typicals 73 179 up 145%
Non-typicals 48 91 up 89%
Ohio P&Y entries from the 1 st edition of
Bowhunting Records of North American Whitetail Deer to the 2nd edition:
1st edition 2nd edition % change
Typicals 948 1,634 up 72%
Non-typicals 71 126 up 77%
Just stating the facts.
Rich
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daking (7 posts)
Jul-26-05, 03:09 PM (EST)
1. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
Yeah, kind of a convenient time for the post to get locked...just about time for the facts to come out. The most recent edition of Kentucky Afield quotes new Commissioner Gassett as saying their studies indicate that the ill-fated crossbow during archery season plan would have No (read none, zero, zip, nada) effect on the herd or flock. According to him it was a social issue. So now we have:
Accuasations of commission members profiting from the sale of crossbows (never even remotely close to proven)
It will decimate the resource (disproven by the good folks who built the resource from nothing and may have the greatest stake in protecting it).
And the post is locked. Hmmmm....
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JimDicken (584 posts)
Jul-26-05, 08:23 PM (EST)
2. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
I locked the thread because the points were being made over and over and were not changing.
YOU are proving my point here...
WHY NO COMPROMISE?
WHY TAKE THE CHANCE..
WHY are YOU ignoring the facts..
Kentucky Officials state.. Gun Hunters initially will be the biggest increase in Crossbow. OUR OWN GUN STATISTICS PROVE.. GUN HUNTERS SHOOT BUCKS.. One Buck limit or not that is more pressure on BUCKs.
32% of Archery stores in CROSSBOW states CLOSE reducing revenue.
KENTUCKY OFFICIALS admit that there will be no SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN REVENUE FROM sale of new PERMITS.
All of the above are FACTS.
Ohio has DROPPED from the top 5 in the region to the bottom 5 while Kentucky has risen and gotten AHEAD of OHIO and we have been hunting a shorter period of time.
THE MAJORITY of hunters and sportsmen in the state are against the issue it failed this year BECAUSE of that.
WHY NO COMPROMISE.. answer that question or I will lock this thread TOO!....
You posted information that showed exactly OPPOSITE numbers for OHIO last week.. now this week they are doing great which is it.
ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!
Same as before..
this is my post it is not reflective of Fishin.com its owner or advertisers.
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JimDicken (584 posts)
Jul-26-05, 08:34 PM (EST)
3. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
>Yeah, kind of a convenient time
>for the post to get
>locked...just about time for the
>facts to come out.
>The most recent edition of
>Kentucky Afield quotes new Commissioner
>Gassett as saying their studies
>indicate that the ill-fated crossbow
>during archery season plan would
>have No (read none, zero,
>zip, nada) effect on the
>herd or flock. According
>to him it was a
>social issue. So now
>we have:
Good men as intelligent as MR. Gasset are taking into account different factors. This is NOT a social issue.. IT IS A RESOURCE ISSUE.. it is being touted as a social issue so that the people against it can be targeted as selfish and self centered which is NOT the case. MR. Gasset's own statements are some of the BEST proof that this is NOT a social issue.
( Don't get me wrong there are some for whom this is social.. but the majority are against this for RESOURCE REASONS ONLY!)
Mr. Sullivan and company are aware of this but ignoring it to distort the issue and make this appear to be ignorance against science.. when in fact it is science against science.
>
>Accuasations of commission members profiting from
>the sale of crossbows (never
>even remotely close to proven)
I retracted that since I can not confirm it.
>
>
>It will decimate the resource (disproven
>by the good folks who
>built the resource from nothing
>and may have the greatest
>stake in protecting it).
NO ONE EVER said it would decimate the resource. IT Has been suggested that the take of BUCKS would increase due to this and change the dynamic of the herd AS FISH AND WILDLIFE AND MR. GASSETT have told us they want it?
GASSETT in the past has said that 50 /50 take does over bucks is the right mix and a slightly higher take of does would be best. 2004 was the FIRST YEAR that ratio was hit.. WHY CHANGE take the chance of changing it now that the take is right.
Mr. Gassett has to worry about his job... and with the current set of commissioners who have publicly stated that they wanted to punish people who did not support them .. I can understand his comments.
>
>And the post is locked.
>Hmmmm....
YOU WONT ANSWER MY QUESTION.. WHY NO COMPROMISE...
you post conflicting numbers for OHIO and now you want to rehash the same things..
ANSWER THE QUESTION.. WHY NO COMPROMISE OR THIS WILL BE LOCKED AS WELL!
This post is made by Jim Dicken and is not reflective of Fishin.com its management or owners or advertisers.
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daking (7 posts)
Jul-26-05, 09:43 PM (EST)
4. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
Why no compromise? Where was the compromise offered by the other side? A few days late in the season? Crossbow hunters already had their own season and could use their crossbows during gun season? The compromises floated so far paid only lip service to the word compromise.
The Ohio business has been bandied about quite a bit. The question I have posited before still is unanswered; how does anyone really know what will happen? Does the use of a crossbow turn an otherwise sensible hunter into a buck killing maniac? WHo knows, but it's equally specious for either side to grab onto this argument.
All of the same arguments get raised, but when reduced to its lowest common denominator, it amounts to a group of hunters who have passed judgement on hunting esthetics, have decided that vertical bows are esthetically superior to the horizontal bow and as such want the horizontal bows relegated to the bottom of the stack.
Finally, let's look at the trophy buck issue. There are those among us who hunt solely for that trophy rack. Others are meat hunters and will take whatever comes along. Another group just wants to kill a deer. It does not matter what kind of deer, just a deer. Who is morally superior? This is a trick question, because all three groups stand on equal footing. They all pay the same for their tag. They all support the industry by spending money on the sport. What kind of deer someone takes (within the parameters of the law) is their business. For any one group to hold itself out as the moral arbiters for everyone is plain old barbara streisand. We've been down this road before with the naysayers about the opening day of turkey season, the telecheck license system, in-line muzzle loaders and a host of other things. It doesn't wash. Open the **** season and evaluate its results. If after a year or two science dictates that it needs modification, modify it. I'm sick of listening to the self appointed "experts" and "sportsmen" talk out of both sides of their mouth. Give as many opportunities for folks to get into the field as possible and the sport has a chance of surviving. Otherwise it will die. Don't believe it? Look at the way it's played out in Europe. Highly regulated, artificially high barriers to entering the sport and elitism. In most places, European hunting is for the landed rich only. There's the slippery slope you're on. Sound extreme? Who'd have thought in 1969 that lead shot would be banned and you'd have to stand outside in the rain to take a smoke?
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fishingnetwork (5 posts)
Jul-26-05, 10:59 PM (EST)
5. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
My two cents......All this talk is getting my blood up! Bowhunters are not a different breed of hunter; nor are gun hunters, pistol, muzzleloader or xbow. We are all HUNTERS. The truth is we are very lucky for our resources to have expanded like it has. I used to hear the rabbit & quail hunters complaining about the gun season running into their season. Rather it is traditional muzzeloader vs. in-line muzzeloader w/ scope; or long bow vs. compound, or even fishing boats vs. pleasure boats, it is still a group of a few complainting about sharing the resource with all.
Our deer herd is boarding overload and if the cross bows will get more people in the field, taking deer, it is a good thing. We as hunters could care less about the economic impacts on Gaylan's or other sporting goods stores. And you all know that is true (unless you have a direct interest in that)
I for one would love to see the X-bow season come in early so my young son could hunt before it gets cold and before the gun season, when deer are more plentyful. I have no fears that the cross bow will not reduce the trophy population, anymore than is rightfully so, by the ethical hunter that pulled the trigger.
Should us gun hunters get mad because a bow hunter kills the buck in September that I have watched all summer long and I didnt even get a chance at it? No, because if he was legal, he earned it!
And more on the issue of trophys.....I am a multi-weapons hunter and I am certain that pressure on a deer herd prior to gun season will.......WITHOUT A DOUBT, preserve trophys. They are still dumb animals, but more pressure equals more caution by the deer. That's right! I argue that x-bows will increase the trophy population, but more importantly it will allow more people the opportunity to hunt.
With cross bow seasons more liberal, the women and younger children will be able to hunt without making the sacrafices that is required with compoung bow (practice) More enjoyment for the whole family. Deer stands, clothes, scents ect. for the whole family. So will Gaylan's make more money off of my compound w/ acc. or my family buying cross bows and equipment. Really, Jim, the sporting goods stores should want to push this, not knock it down. They stand to gain more money.
Well its off my chest. I took my own poll and more are for it than against it, but my poll has a plus or minus factor of 7 million.
See ya in the woods
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JimDicken (584 posts)
Jul-26-05, 11:10 PM (EST)
6. "RE: For the Record, Jim"
>Why no compromise? Where was
>the compromise offered by the
>other side? A few
>days late in the season?
> Crossbow hunters already had
>their own season and could
>use their crossbows during gun
>season? The compromises floated
>so far paid only lip
>service to the word compromise.
There was no time for a compromise the rules had to go to the LRC by a certain date. THERE IS TIME now to draw up a compromise that will test the information that we have and whether it will cause problems BEFORE initiating a full Crossbow as Archery rule.
>
>
>The Ohio business has been bandied
>about quite a bit.
>The question I have posited
>before still is unanswered; how
>does anyone really know what
>will happen? Does the
>use of a crossbow turn
>an otherwise sensible hunter into
>a buck killing maniac?
>WHo knows, but it's equally
>specious for either side to
>grab onto this argument.
>
HOW DOES ANYOEN REALLY KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN? YOUR OWN STATEMENT... Thank You .. Thank You.. thank you.. EXACTLY the reason to approach this with some bit of conservatism and not whole hog. THANK YOU for exactly making my point.
NO the use of a Crossbow does NOT mean a BUCK killing machine.. BUT the rationale is valid. IF Gun hunters are the first to pick up the Xbow and GUN Hunters take the LARGER majority of BUCKS..what do you THINK they will go after???
AGAIN .. you are taking this to an extreme to make it look worse than is real. NO ONE has said that Crossbow Hunters are BUCK killing maniacs and no one is painting them as that. However Fish and wildlife figures show.. and their own statements indicate.. Crossbow hunters will kill more bucks than does initially.
YOU chose to use rhetoric that is inflamatory and which makes this APPEAR to be something OTHER than a resource issue..
>All of the same arguments get
>raised, but when reduced to
>its lowest common denominator, it
>amounts to a group of
>hunters who have passed judgement
>on hunting esthetics, have decided
>that vertical bows are esthetically
>superior to the horizontal bow
>and as such want the
>horizontal bows relegated to the
>bottom of the stack.
NO ONE has passed judgement.. people have concerns and the hunters of the state want the concerns addressed..While the commission on the OTHER hand has decided that they should TELL us what is best.. without addressing any concerns of the people who pay the freight. Your statement above is PURE HOG Manure. I USE A CROSSBOW... I am concerned about the resource NOT about what bow is used.. (YES there are a few.. a very small minority who are against the Xbow for the reasons you state but you give THEM too much credit for this. MOST of the people against this are NOT affiliated with any BOW or Archery organization)
>
>Finally, let's look at the trophy >buck issue. There are
>those among us who hunt >solely for that trophy rack.
> Others are meat hunters >and will take whatever comes
>along. Another group just >wants to kill a deer.
> It does not matter >what kind of deer, just
>a deer. Who is >morally superior? This is >a trick question, because all >three groups stand on equal >footing. They all pay >the same for their tag. > They all support the
>industry by spending money on >the sport. What kind
>of deer someone takes (within the parameters of the law)
>is their business. For >any one group to hold
>itself out as the moral >arbiters for everyone is plain
>old barbara streisand. We've >been down this road before
>with the naysayers about the >opening day of turkey season,
>the telecheck license system, in-line >muzzle loaders and a host >of other things.
I will not argue this point. You are correct. Each of us who follows the rules is entitled to take any deer that is LEGAL.. I will not argue with tis.. HOWEVER a state with TROPHY quality deer herd has a valuable resource that will ENRICH more than hunters. It employs our people and helps to pay for our schools, and roads through taxes. Kentucky has gone ahead of OHIO without the Crossbow. WHY CHANCE IT?
It >doesn't wash. Open the **** season and evaluate its
>results.
So you are willing to risk what it took 20 years to build. HOW MANY TIMES in the last 20 years has ANY season been reduced or changed. IF this change is made it will NOT be reduced. There will be MORE of an outcry to change it back than there is about the issue NOW. With this change ANOTHER special intereste group will be created. Already several people have started setting up Crossbow Associations. Once there is an interest group there will be no changes...
What you are saying is go buy a bunch of equipment and if it does not harm the herd we will continue to let you use it.. but if we have a problem your just S-O-L.. Thats just a brilliant way to look at it.
THERE IS NO REASON not to compromise and to do this in INCREMENTS.
If after a >year or two science dictates >that it needs modification, modify >it. I'm sick of >listening to the self appointed >"experts" and "sportsmen" talk out >of both sides of their >mouth. Give as many >opportunities for folks to get
>into the field as possible >and the sport has a >chance of surviving. Otherwise >it will die. Don't >believe it? Look at >the way it's played out >in Europe. Highly regulated,
>artificially high barriers to entering >the sport and elitism. > In most places, European >hunting is for the landed
>rich only. There's the >slippery slope you're on.
>Sound extreme? Who'd have >thought in 1969 that lead
>shot would be banned and >you'd have to stand outside
>in the rain to take >a smoke?
All it takes is a year or 2 of this and the whole system could be messed up and take years to correct. This means getting rules changes through the same commission that will TAKE AWAY hunting days and TAKE AWAY portions of each type of hunters days in the field.. WHO IS GOING TO MAKE THE SACRIFICE.. the Xbow guys?? Archery? Rifle and Shotgun? Black Powder?
Another Question.. How many weapons cliques are we going to allow to join at the table? Spear throwers next.. Pistol Guys?
Trappers, are we going to allow hunting with dogs like other states..
JUST BECAUSE we can does that mean we should..
How many weapons are we going to allow.. is this the last?
SMOKING KILLS.. It killed my father last year. YES I would have believed that you would have to take a cigarette outside.. because it is unhealthy.
Crossbow MAY be UNHEALTHY FOR THE HERD from the evidence I am looking at. Crossbow has a season.. It should be expanded.. but it should NOT be included with Archery all at once.
ONE MORE TIME....
There was no time for a compromise position.. the rules had to be printed (According to KYDFWR anyway.. and turned in to the LRC for approval.) Had the commissioners started this earlier in the year instead of up against the rules submission deadline there might have been a compromise worked out. However their attempt to sneak this by the Hunters and Fishermen of the state shows a contempt for all of us.
Their taped comments in the commission meeting concerning taking action to punish the UBK, and another organisation are reprehensible.. and their statement that there should be NO inclusion of Fish and Wildlife in any event whose sponsor was not supporting the commission was Un American.
This is a democracy. One of the great things about a democracy is that you CAN support the government and its organisations but take UMBRANCE at an issue. THE UBK and others do not support this single issue, but have in the past worked tirelessly to support KYDFWR and UBK is the lead organization that supports the departments Archery in the Schools Program. They took the lead in setting up and recording the State Bow Fishing Records.. and the state Department of Fish and Wildlife has NEVER paid a penny for any space at the Sports Show in Louisville while getting a tremendous amount of GOOD PR for its programs and officers by being at that show. How many people have had their bucks scored by KYDFWR?? Do you want to lose that? How could any sportsman in good conscience support this kind of talk in a commission meeting.
Terry, your own words prove my points again.
DO YOU support the type of actions that were taken by the commission. Can you not at least RESPECT the fact that these men believe this could be a problem and are trying to stop it because they REALLY DO have concerns FOR THE RESOURCE?
If you don't then you are blind.
I will agree to disagree, but I would NEVER try to stop you and I would NOT categorize you as you are categorizing these good men who are against this issue.
Wake UP.. Next time it may be an issue that we agree on. The commission must not be allowed to make the kind of divisive rulings and comments as they have done in the last few months.
Jim Dicken
This is my statement.. it is NOT approved by Fishin.com its owners or advertisers.
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VMAXX (503 posts)
Jul-26-05, 11:15 PM (EST)
7. "Aint this the fishing forum ??? n/m"
n/m
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vmaxx >)))^((">
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justfishin (177 posts)
Jul-27-05, 00:17 AM (EST)
8. "RE: Aint this the fishing forum ??? n/m"
>n/m
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Vmaxx >)))^((">
LMAO LET ME KNOW WHEN WE HAVE A CROSSBOW ROD AND REEL WITH A FISH FINDER IN THE TIP OF THE BOLT!!
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JimDicken (584 posts)
Jul-27-05, 01:07 AM (EST)
9. "You missed the first Series.."
Where I reported that sources inside the Department of Fish and Wildlife admit that in states where Crossbow has been included with Archery that 32% of Archery Stores closed.
This will affect fishermen because like Fishing Equipment there is an excise tax that goes to the Department. The Crossbow issue MIGHT result in lower revenue for ALL not just for Hunters.
While MOST money is spent on what brings it in, it will still affect monies available to the Law Enforcement Division as well as to fishinig and hunting.. and available to the NON Game species..
ALSO when commissioners threaten to retaliate when sportsmen disagree with them we are all at risk. Imagine if one of them had been FOR the Spoonbill Netting Proposal.
That is why it I brought it up in the first place.
Jim Dicken This is MY POST..
This is NOT approved by Fishin.com its owners or sponsors.
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