Moved From Fishing Board.

[Guest Author]

It's interesting that this topic died like a stone when it was moved from fishing to hunting. I believe that when stripped from pejorative, most hunters:

1) Understand that the crossbow season would not have had the deleterious effect on the buck/doe ratio despite some specious and out-of-context numbers from Ohio might be construed to mean.

2) Most hunters don't care if crossbow hunters get to use their tools during bow season.

3) The arguments about lost revenues from excise taxes and archery stores going bust are red herrings.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Terry Sullivan

[Guest Author]

>It's interesting that this topic died
>like a stone when it
>was moved from fishing to
>hunting. I believe that
>when stripped from pejorative, most
>hunters:
>

It dropped because the fishing board gets 4 times the traffic or more. The fishermen see my point.. I.e Danny etc..

>1) Understand that the crossbow season
>would not have had the
>deleterious effect on the buck/doe
>ratio despite some specious and
>out-of-context numbers from Ohio might
>be construed to mean.

That is NOT what Fish and Wildlife's Own Statements are saying.
Gun Hunters shoot Bucks to a VERY Large percentage over does. IF they are the primary users of crossbow then the primary target becomes BUCKS..

>2) Most hunters don't care
>if crossbow hunters get to
>use their tools during bow
>season.

Not True and you know this.. IF it affects the herd and no evidence has been produced OTHER Than opinions to indicate if this will hurt the herd or the Turkey Flock proceeding with CAUTION is necessary and SMART.
>
>3) The arguments about lost revenues
>from excise taxes and archery
>stores going bust are red
>herrings.

RED HERRING"S.. because YOU say so. Because you do not want to admit that it is true. These figures come from people INSIDE KYDFWR. The next attempt to include crossbow with archery will be even more divisive and you will see Archery Stores coming out against this. The Statistics are correct. OVER a 30% loss in number of Archery Stores in states where Crossbow was included with Archery.
Ohio's numbers are strange and because of the difference in lay of the land are less than accurate for Kentucky, but a few things are evident.. IN OHIO the take for Bucks is highest among Crossbow Hunters.
This is NOT a social issue it is a Resource issue.
The majority of people against the inclusion of crossbow are against if for Quality of Herd and Quality of the Flock reasons. One bad season.. on OFF season .. one weather beaten season where the Archery take drops and the Gun season sees great success and we are back to lopsided takes of does to bucks. Ad in the unknown of Crossbow and the possibility for a problem is even higher. WHY THIS RUSH TO DO so much at one time. Why not bite off a small piece at a time and see what the results are. We started with 2 3 day Gun Seasons.. We did NOT start with a Full Week. We now have up to 3 weeks with guns.
If the take goes up for Crossbow will the gun guys be cut out of further increases? Archery? Black Powder? We are giving Crossbow 100% of the season. WHY?

>
>Thus endeth the lesson.

NEW LESSON Terry.. You still can not answer any of my points with other than accusations that they are Red Herrings.. You can not disprove any point I am making. Lesson?
Not Social / Resource driven
Revenue Increase / Revenue Decrease
These are the basic reasons for the Commissioners Running this through improperly.. They SAY it is social when it is NOT, they say it will increase revenue.. when it won't and It will increase participation.. when in fact it will only change the weapon preference.. And all of this from KYDFWR own mouth.

Jim Dicken
I wrote this.. It is not approved by Fishin.com its owners or advertisers...

[Guest Author]

1) Wal-Mart, Dicks, Cabelas, Bass Pro and the like have killed more archery stores than the crossbow ever could. You assert that crossbow hunters need less tackle. Still, they need tackle. It's going to be bought somewhere. Mostly it will be bought from the efficient sellers. Is the purpose of setting a hunting season to keep mom and pop retaillers in business? If you have a beef with factors that put archery shops out of business, look to big-box retaillers and mail order. Clearly, this is a red herring. Where do you get your 30% number for archery store failure and how can you directly link it to crossbows as opposed to other economic factors (competition, mismanagement, macro economic changes and such)? Your number can simply not be supported by any discernable fact.

2) You have stated that crossbow hunters take the largest numbers of bucks in Ohio. Is that an absolute number or a proportionate number? Were they trophy bucks? Are the crossbow hunters more skilled than other disciplines so that they can take more bucks? By your own admission the Ohio statistics are strange.

3) Rush to set up a season? So that crossbow hunters can get a few crumbs swept from the table and face this battle each year? The OFFICIAL line from the KDFWR is that the flock/herd can easily sustain the pressure from crossbow hunting...the grumblings of the disgruntled employee notwithstanding.

4) What purpose would it serve for the commission to pass a regulation that would hurt the resource or the economics of hunting? The previously floated argument that some had a financial interest has been widely disproven. Are they stupid? Do they want to ruin hunting? Remember they were elected by you and me and selected by the governor. You and I had a say in who they are.

The fact of the matter, Jim, is that your arguments, no matter how often stated do not hold any water. In fact, the only reason that I bother to keep posting is not to change your mind but to keep the new reader informed about the differences in how you see things and how I see things. It's a battle for the minds of the public. One would hope that reason will prevail. That's a scary proposition, being that a relatively loud but small group got this thing derailed for 2005. What do you want to bet crossbow season is a go for 2006?


Terry Sullivan

[fishbum]

>1) Wal-Mart, Dicks, Cabelas, Bass Pro >and the like have killed >more archery stores than the >crossbow ever could. You
>assert that crossbow hunters need >less tackle. Still, they
>need tackle. It's going >to be bought somewhere. Mostly
>it will be bought from >the efficient sellers. Is >the purpose of setting a >hunting season to keep mom >and pop retaillers in business? > If you have a >beef with factors that put >archery shops out of business, >look to big-box retaillers and >mail order. Clearly, this >is a red herring. >Where do you get your >30% number for archery store >failure and how can you >directly link it to crossbows >as opposed to other economic >factors (competition, mismanagement, macro economic
>changes and such)? Your >number can simply not be >supported by any discernable fact.

I got the number from a source in Fish and Wildlife. I will not expose that person since doing so might get him fired.
As for the assertion that Dick's and Walmart and Bass Pro have closed more stores.. NOT IN KENTUCKY.. NOT IN LOUISVILLE. As for the reason for setting a hunting season it is to do several things.. #1 to manage the herd.. #2 To provide recreation, and food to the hunters who pay the bills, #3 Economic Development.
This includes OPENING and sustaining businesses like Hotels, Motels, Department stores, Call makers and YES the Mom and Pop Archery Stores. How do I link it? Simple the statistics came from states with Crossbow as Archery. Can I PROVE that it is the only reason.. NO! but it is rather coincidental that it has occurred ONLY in states with Crossbow as Archery? Crossbow hunters do not need less tackle.. they need less to hunt with like accessories. Tackle is for fishing.. they do not need gloves, new pins for sites, balancers and arrows fletched or cut. Yes they need strings and rail lube.. that is about it. Oh and broadheads.. No silencers, no whisker biskets, none of the extras for a crossbow you need for bows..
Dick's, Cabela's and the Big Boxes do not offer shooting lanes or several services that many archery stores offer. I know Dick's and Cabela's do not offer fletching.. they do cut arrows or at least Galyans did.. before it was Dick's
>
>
>2) You have stated that crossbow >hunters take the largest numbers >of bucks in Ohio. >Is that an absolute number
>or a proportionate number? >Were they trophy bucks?
>Are the crossbow hunters more >skilled than other disciplines so >that they can take more >bucks? By your own
>admission the Ohio statistics are >strange.

The numbers I got from Ohio were that the Crossbow is the major weapon for the taking of Bucks in Ohio. PERIOD.. Absolute?? Not gonna answer that cause it makes no sense. Nothing Strange about OHIO.. ONLY YOUR PRESENTATION is strange I said. One day you show Kentucky AHEAD of Ohio and the next you selectively leave OUT the numbers and show ONLY Ohio stats. I did not say Ohio's stats were strange! YOU are strange and the way YOU bring up the stats are strange.. and apparently the only stats that are relevant are the stats YOU decide are the ones we should look at.
>
>3) Rush to set up a >season? So that crossbow
>hunters can get a few >crumbs swept from the table
>and face this battle each >year? The OFFICIAL line
>from the KDFWR is that >the flock/herd can easily sustain
>the pressure from crossbow hunting...the >grumblings of the disgruntled employee >notwithstanding.

Rush? A few Crumbs?
The OFFICIAL line is suspect when commissioners threaten state organizations and individuals with retaliation for disagreeing with them. Are they doing the same thing to the people who are saying that the resource can handle the pressure? If a biologist agreed with the people who say 130+ days are too many to start off with would he still have a job?
What disgruntled employee are you speaking of?
Rush? Yeah when it is brought up in the last month before NEW hunting regs must go to the LRC.. and when the issue is disguised as a Crossbow Survey DISCUSSION.
YOU made the dumb statement "Do it and see what happens.. change it if it hurts the herd" (I am paraphrasing here..)
And like I said.. when was the last time any season was taken BACK once it had been approved. How much damage to the herd is acceptable to you if you are wrong???
>
>4) What purpose would it serve >for the commission to pass
>a regulation that would hurt >the resource or the economics
>of hunting? The previously >floated argument that some had
>a financial interest has been >widely disproven. Are they
>stupid? Do they want >to ruin hunting? Remember >they were elected by you >and me and selected by >the governor. You and
>I had a say in >who they are.

What purpose? How about selfishness and arrogance. How about a totally different agenda than that of the majority of hunters?
Almost everyone has agreed that the changes to the Turkey Season were ill concieved but they were pushed through by the same group of commissioners. Even Art Lander agreed that the change in dates for Turkey Season was wrong.. but they made the change any way over the objections of the NWTF and some biologists. What would it serve..?? I have no clue.. ask the commission. HOWEVER.. the HISTORY OF THE KYDFWR is one of conservative growth and change in laws. I sincerely believe that if the Man (and here I feel very bad I can not remember his name) who Fathered the Turkey Restoration were still alive he would have had a fit over this new regulation and the way it was passed favoring Crossbows.
Why do Crossbows get so much of the season?
Why not enlarge the gun season?
Why not longer Black Powder?
My answer would be ... More Buck Pressure. The IN KENTUCKY STATS prove my point and you NEVER answer that.... so screw the OHIO Stats.. tell me about Kentucky and the admissions by KYDFWR that Gun Guys will be the major increase initially in Crossbow users? How about the FACT that Gun HUNTERS kill the ABSOLUTE majority of Bucks in this state and Archers take the does? This stat in and by itself indicates that going to a full 130+ days for Crossbow is NOT a good idea. We got it right this year.. why would you want to screw with that..and if it was right what is the hurry to add so many days for Crossbow?WHY do it all at once? Why not phase it in and see what the results and pressures are to the herd..
Selfishness on the part of people who WANT the crossbow.. is the answer. NOT consideration of the herd OR the Budget of the Department is on your mind. OH and the budget was THE reason given to us for doing this.. Increasing permit sales and taxes..
Both of these were RED HERRINGs.
>
>The fact of the matter, Jim, >is that your arguments, no
>matter how often stated do >not hold any water. >In fact, the only reason >that I bother to keep >posting is not to change
>your mind but to keep >the new reader informed about
>the differences in how you >see things and how I
>see things. It's a >battle for the minds of >the public. One would >hope that reason will prevail.
> That's a scary proposition, being that a relatively loud
>but small group got this >thing derailed for 2005.
>What do you want to >bet crossbow season is a
>go for 2006?

I am holding a bucket and it is NOT leaking. Your the one holding a seive. You are not going to keep any one informed by positing the absolute NONSENSE that you have already. YOUR OWN arguments are the best reason NOT to increase Crossbow to a full 130+ days.
ONE MORE TIME.. This is NOT a loud but small group. The meeting at Fish and Wildlife showed that it is a large, vocal and intelligent group that is ready to fight the small group YOU yourself represent... YOU are the only person coming here because YOU are ALONE. Most posts have been in support of my position..
LOUD but small?? IN your dreams only. Keep lying, Terry. Eventually the lie becomes the truth is you push it long enough.. "Who said that any way" I am sure you would know?
The only way this will pass as it was proposed in 2005 is for the commission to AGAIN vote it in in SECRET!

Jim Dicken
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