Heavy Rains and Turnover....

[VMAXX]

"I disagree that you have to have wind to have a turnover."

Catfsh if the surface temp is the same as the bottom what makes you think it will sink.....its the same density turnover occurs(mixing) when the wind blows

[VMAXX]

we can agree to disagree



http://www.in-fisherman.com/magazine...2706_turnover/


:-)

[Grumpy]

FOR CTFSHWISHER: I was at Rough BEFORE the rains, not after the influx of water. The shallower parts of North Fork were definately turning over, I don't think the main channel/lake had started yet, but it won't be long. I think, in most years, the turnover happens a lot earlier than most people think it does. I also used to think it happened in October or even sometimes in November (in local lakes) but since I retired and fish more often, I have found that it actually happens in September--at least it has for the last six years.

FOR VMAX: I think you are reading and picking and choosing what you want to see/believe. I read that article a long time ago, along with a bunch more on the subject, and not one of them, including the article you mentioned says that you HAVE TO HAVE WIND for the turnover and by turnover I mean the breaking up of the thermocline, not necessarily when the surface water get ALL THE WAY to the bottom.

Do a search on Google for "Fall Turnover" and there are dozens of articles on the turnover. Not one that I could find, says anything about WIND BEING NECESSARY for the actual turnover. Most of them do say that wind helps to complete the process of mixing the oxygen back throughout the water column, but that is all.

Also, I don't think you read what I wrote, because I wasn't writing about when the temperature is the SAME from top to bottom, I said:

"when the water on top is colder then the water at the thermocline, the colder water will sink below and break up the thermocline. Wind will speed up the process, especialy the mixing of oxygen AFTER THE TURNOVER but wind is not necessary for the actual turnover."

I do agree that the surface water would have to be colder than the water at the BOTTOM to complete the MIXING OF OXYGEN, but every article I have seen refers to the TURNOVER as when the THERMOCLINE is broken, not when the surface water gets all the way to the bottom. Usually that will happen soon after the thermocline is broken and you get the bottom dredging, muck raking part of the turnover that brings the bottom water and debris to the top along with the foul smell, oily surface and debris floating on top.

However, if after reading some of the articles on Google about the turnover, and if you still think you are correct, would you please explain to me: HOW THE WIND GETS DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF A 55 FOOT DEEP LAKE!!

[VMAXX]

Like I said Grumpy we will have to agree to disagree I've done the google thing long ago, and of course I know the wind doesnt blow down to the bottom of a 55' lake.... However it blows across the lake pushing the water column to the lee side creating a circulation bringing up water from the aft side, when the water column is the same temp it circulates into the hypolimnion... hence the stinky smell (hydrogen sulfide) most people associate with turnover, what is it that you think brings the "bottom water and debris to the top along with the foul smell, oily surface and debris floating on top" ??? Now maybe you can explain to me how all this decay on the bottom reaches the surface WITHOUT THE WIND ?

Definition of turnover:The resulting circulations will, over time, completely overturn and mix the full lake water mass. This is what is called fall turnover. When the first deep waters rise to the surface, they release their sulphurous gases into the air, often producing a telltale rotten-egg odour. Eventually, the turnover mixes atmospheric oxygen into the full water mass, replenishing the oxygen in deep waters and cleansing the sulphurous gases.

Another:
Turnover: The mixing of lake water from top to bottom after a period of stable stratification. This typically occurs in fall and is caused by wind and seasonal cooling of surface waters.
( oh yeah I googled these)

Not just breaking the thermocline

[VMAXX]

Sorry catfish post#6 was for grumpy :-)

[Grumpy]

Semantics is a wonderful thing--it allows you to believe what you want to believe regardless of what is actually written.

Grumpy

Our God and the soldier we alike adore.
But at the brink of danger, not before:
After deliverance, both alike requited,
God is forgotten, the soldier slighted.

Anonymous

[VMAXX]

http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weathe.../turnlakes.htm

[Grumpy]

That article proves my point exactly--that the turnover happens and then the wind helps to mix the water. VMAX, the way you are putting defies simple physics. The way you put it is like saying (for example) that the surface layer has cooled from 75 degrees to 55 degrees BUT that it won't sink below the bottom layer which was 60 degrees UNTIL THE WIND BLOWS IT DOWN THERE. If the wind doesn't blow for a month will all the water just sit ther without turning over? I don't think so!! The simplest rule of thermal dynamics is that warmer water will rise above colder water. It does not need wind to do it. Nuff said!!

[VMAXX]

Sorry dude like I said agree to disagree, I guess my thermal dynamics is a bit rusty lol :-)

[CTFSHWHISKER]

I definitely agree it can happen earlier,i went to green last year late august for a night trip that yeilded 3 fish all night,i started after dark,noticing my finder was completely black but not thinking it could be turning,it was at daylight moving from a hole to another it was bubling and had oily film all over in any water less than 15 feet was definitley turning.wind current rain and steady or unsteady temps have an impact on it.wasn't trying to be smart about rough just thought i may not be the only one to mistake the rolling water color for turnover.I have seen alot of turnover start in september in shallow water,farmponds are about done flipping.

[Grumpy]

It doesn't surprise me that Green was turning over in late August. In the past, I have noticed that, for some reason, Green River Lake seems to turnover sooner than the other lakes around here. I knew you weren't trying to be smart about Rough and I agree, its easy to miss or mistake the early stages of the turnover.

Grumpy

Our God and the soldier we alike adore.
But at the brink of danger, not before:
After deliverance, both alike requited,
God is forgotten, the soldier slighted.

Anonymous