Fireline Crystal

[Danny]

I've posted this several times, but we have a lot of new posters, and I won't post the entire thing, but here is what Doug Hannon, the bass professor has to say about the line visibility.

He says that a bass' optic nerves and brain stem are not developed enough to see any line that is not at least as thick as a nickle, unless it happens to be a very flourescent line. He suggests that the smaller lines produce more strikes because of the added action the limper line allows.

I saw this on ESPN, and never saw it again. I always figured some line company that buys sponsorship on ESPN got upset, so I searched for quite some time until I found Doug's email address. I emailed him a question about how I remembered explaination, and he answered confirming what I remembered.

One other thing, we constantly hear about the sensitivity of the latteral line. If it is as sensitive as we have all heard, could it be the fish "feels" the line coming through the water? Just a thought.

I hope whatever you fish with loads the boat.

Tight lines and God Bless

Danny

[Smally7]

This has been a topic on my mind since I was a kid. I have always been paranoid about fish seeing my line. I am not as smart about these topics as Doug Hanah, but I find it hard to belive that they will not shy away from a slow moving bait, jig grub etc... in clear highland lakes. I have taken people to Dale with me that have never fished it and would not belive me that they should use 6 pound test.
They showed up with 10, even 8 pound test and have outfished them 3 fish to 1. Now I do belive on a jerkbait or crank, even burning a spinnerbait, that you can get away with 8 to 10. The only problem is, you'r bait will not go as deep.
Just my opinion,
God Bless Our Soldiers!
Keith

[redneckshadrap]

I have never used anything but 4lb at Dale....

[jonasseed]

does this line show up under a blacklight?

[Moose1am]

Something to think about guys. When fish are hatched they have to eat something smaller than themselves. The food they search out and eat are microscopic is size. These tiny microscopic organisms are so small that you can't see them without the air of a compound microscope. Now if the young crappie or young bass can see these microscopic zooplanktons that are not only small but have clear bodies without a lot of color to them then that tells me that the fish's eyes are pretty sensitive.

Young crappie feed almost exclusively on these small zooplankton until they grow big enough to start eating small minnow.

I have kept crappie in my aquarium at home for the last two years. And during the summer I got to the local lakes and net small minnows from the shoreline. These minnows are really fish fry. They are only about 1/4 inch long. The crappie in my aquarium have no problem what so ever seeing and catching these small minnow.

While I don't know just exactly how the fish's eye works I have read a little bit about this in my science books. I think that the fish's brain is bigger in the area of the brain that deals with smells. But there are lobs of the fish's brain that are strictly devoted to sight as well.

And this quarters issue of Crappie World Magazine has an article about how crappie can see colors as well. We all should know by know that some colors work best. Chartreuse works great in stained to muddy water. While natural colors of green and earthworm color work best in clear water.

I also know a little about Microscopy as that's part of my business. I am worked in Laboratory where we routinely used microscopes. I have been using the microscope all throughout my schooling. I have been using the microscope for to study bacteria and also to study crystal structures.

In my studies dealing with the identification of asbestos fibers I learned a great deal about refractive index of materials.

I learned that if you put a drop of liquid that has a much higher or much lower RI than the mineral fibers under study the fibers show up much easier under the polarizing microscope. That means that they have more contract and you can see them better. If the fiber under study is put in a liquid that has nearly the same Refractive Index as the fiber then the fiber virtually disappears under the microscope.

What's all this have to do with fishing? Well fishing line is made out of plastic. And plastic fibers or fishing lines also have a Refractive Index. The closer the fishing line Refractive Index is to the water in the lake the harder it will be for the fish to see the line.

Now the line's diameter also have an effect on the fish's ability to see the line. Not only that but the diameter effects how deep the lures run when fishing with crank baits. We know that thinner lines will help the crank bait dive deeper. There is less friction between the fishing line and the water with smaller diameter lines.

I was surprised to learn that Berkley Fire line Crystal was not a mono line. According to what everyone is saying in this thread it's a braided line? I don't like braided lines for one reason. They don't break easily and when I try to free a hook from the brush pile I can easily cut my fingers on the braided lines. I am so use to mono's stretching and breaking easily that I forgot that the braided lines don't do that. I hate getting line cuts on my fingers and then having to clean fish or dip my hands in the dirty minnow bucket water. I got a finger cut infected once and it took three weeks to get that under control. Some nasty bacteria grow in the dirty water. And even good neosporin ointment won't kill some bacteria. Now I keep some liquid band aid in my tackle box and some antibiotic soap and antiseptic solutions with me while fishing. That helps. Someone told me to wear disposable gloves while cleaning the fish which I may try some day.

But getting back to what the fish can see or not. I think that the fish can see even tiny objects in the water. I think that they can see better than we give them credit for.

How small of an object can we as Humans see with our eyes? We can see small grains of sand easily. We can't see the tiny zooplankton found in the water but the fish sure can.

Moose1am

[Bonefish]

Moose, you have done it again. Keep the information flowing. Thanks!

[Danny]

Moose,

Please don't take any offense, but I only know you from the board, and that's about it, while Doug Hannon has a well known reputation.

I think I will stick with Doug.

BTW, I would postulate that the young crappie and bass are possibly just feeding by straining the microscopic organisms out of the water, as I highly doubt that their eyesight is strong enough to see microscopic items.

Just my opinion. I do appreciate your lengthy and thorough response.

Tight lines and God Bless

Danny

[Basscat]

No, chrystal doesnt show up under a blacklight.

[Moose1am]

Fish can feel vibrations in the water with their lateral lines. They use them to locate prey and to tell them when a predator is coming. The small pores in the lateral line are filled with tiny hairs that sense vibrations in the water.

What's the story on Doug Hannon? That name does sound familiar but I can't remember where I have heard the name before.

Regards,

Moose1am

[Danny]

>Fish can feel vibrations in the water with their lateral
>lines. They use them to locate prey and to tell them when a
>predator is coming. The small pores in the lateral line are
>filled with tiny hairs that sense vibrations in the water.
>
>What's the story on Doug Hannon? That name does sound
>familiar but I can't remember where I have heard the name
>before.
>
>Regards,
>
>Moose1am

Moose,

He is known as the Bass Professor, has his own website where he sells a lure of his design, has caught well over 50 fish over 10 lbs, and has had numerous Television shows.

That's about all I know of him off the top of my head.

PLEASE understand Moose, I really do appreciate all the knowledge and research you have done and shared with us on the site.


Tight lines and God Bless

Danny

[apb]

The question really isn't about whether or not fish can see the line or not, its more a question of do they really care. If a fish is willing to overlook those treble hooks hanging very unnaturally from the tail and belly of a plug, does seeing your line matter that much to them? As noted above, thinner line can often be better because it produces a better action on the lure or bait.

Interesting read Moose!

Andrew

[Moose1am]

Thanks Andrew.

Yes I think they see the lines ok but they are more interested in the baits and eating.

It's like when I am super hungry and someone puts a 12 oz steak on paper plate in front of me. I don't really care what type of plate the steak is served on as I am focused on the steak only.

Last night I went back to my College Ichthyology book to look up some information regarding the eyes of different fish. The book is by Karl F. Lagler, John E. Bardach and Robert R. Miller. All three were from the University of Michigan. Karl was the Professor of Fisheries and of Zoology and Chairman of the Department of Fisheries in the School of Natural Resources. John was Professor of Zoology and Curator of Fishes in the Museum of Zoology and Robert was Professor of Zoology and Curator of Fisher in the Museum of Zoology. All were with the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor.

The book "Ichthyology" ISBN 0 471 51165 X can be found in most College Libraries.

It's pretty general information and there was not much information on any one species of fish. A few statements were given on Trout and a few on Black Bass. When I read the trout parts it got me to thinking. Sometimes trout will sip at the water's surface feeding on tiny midge larvae that are stuck in the surface film. Those trout can focus their lens in their eyes on two spots at the same time. And some fish that crawl out of the water can actually see in air as well as under water. Mud skippers were given as an example. Some fish have Binocular Vision so that they can judge depth and distance. the pikes have veritable sighting groove on their snouts in front of the eyes. Two imaginary lines projected from the grooves to cross the head in front of the eyes will include the angle within which a particular species have overlapping visual field, and thus, presumably the field in which the animal has three dimensional vision.

In some experiments where water fleas (Daphnia)are fed to young salmon in low light intensities, the fish assume an oblique position below their prey so as to see them in maximal contrast against the screen afforded by the water surface, watch them move for a few moments and then snap them up one by one. Daphnia are pretty small creatures. They would be hard to see without the air of some type of magnification device. They are not bacterial in size but they are about the size of a head of a pin or smaller.

The book talked about how minnows can see pretty good also.

You can look this information up yourself if you can get a copy of this book on Ichthyology. I found this information above on pages 370 though 381. I skipped a lot of the technical stuff. I would post some of the drawings in here but this forum won't allow me to scan and post pictures. Besides it copyrighted material.

The book was published by John Wiley & Sons, Inc., New York - London and Sydney Australia. You might say it was known worldwide to most fishery biologists and their teachers.

I took a semester of Ichthyology and one of Limnology when I was getting my Degree in Environmental Sciences from Purdue. Before that I studied Pre Veternary Medicine for two years.

I guess that explains why I like to look deeper into the technical reasons of why fish do what they do. I don't mean to bore anyone with this information. It's just that I enjoy knowing the why things work and how they work.

Regards,

Moose1am