West Boggs Drawdown

[PL]

So bascially all you have is speculation from 3rd parties who don't want to get involved? Sounds like a fish story to me. I'd say the minnows being dumped is probably a good place to start. I asked you earlier how long this has been going on and you didn't answer. Seems to me it's been about 8/10 years now? Is that close to being accurate? Anyway good luck on getting your lake straightened out.

"some kind of proof" covers a lot of territory. I already said that the information we had did was not sufficient to take to court, so from the legal sense it did not constitute poof. But the sources (there were more than one with the same or similar information) were credible enough to cause me to believe that they did know what they were talking about.

It is not my intent to use this forum to assess the value of any information that was received about this issue. But to say it was worthless is an error. The information did point to a specific group of anglers in a specific area, some of whom we have noticed seem to be a little too quick to denounce the information and its sources without even knowing what was said or who said it. So in that sense the worth of discussion the matter may still be helping sort out the good guys from the bad guys, even if none of it can go to court for this particular case. It is always good to know who your friends are, and your foes.

[MikeAxsom]

So bascially all you have is speculation from 3rd parties who don't want to get involved? Sounds like a fish story to me. I'd say the minnows being dumped is probably a good place to start. I asked you earlier how long this has been going on and you didn't answer. Seems to me it's been about 8/10 years now? Is that close to being accurate? Anyway good luck on getting your lake straightened out.

Actually it has been about 7 years, and about 5 since the active investigation ended. The shad problem will likely continue to deny anglers some fishing opportunity for the foreseeable future. There is probably not going to be another renovation anytime soon; and maybe not at all unless the people that can make the decision to spend the necessary money are convinced it will be worthwhile.

And yes, of course it is possible that the information sources were just telling lies. They were fishermen themselves, and tournament fishermen to boot. And part of the reason they didn't want to be named or further involved was that they feared being harassed by other tournament anglers as turncoats. Two different guys from two different clubs; both of which told almost the same story about some guys from yet a third club bragging about their exploits. They both identified the club to which the braggarts belonged, and gave names and the circumstances of the conversations. I still think they were telling what they thought was the truth, but maybe it was all just hokum.

[bassmanic1]

Mike ,
I have a question . The few times I have been to Boggs I had to pay at the gate to get in . How do the people who illegaly stock shad get past the gate without getting caught ? If the ranger at the gate checks each truck really well they should be able to find anything holding water by rocking the boat and listening for a sloshing sound { except for the fuel tank } which they would have to have to keep the shad alive . Every tournament Ive been in they check livewells to cut down on cheating . Also , if the gate isnt attended at night and anyone can come and go as they please then you will never stop this activity from going on .
Larry , the shad at Patoka have really help the bass fishing { remember the dead sea in the 80's ? } but the bluegill fishing is all but gone because of them , wouldnt you agree ? Used to be if you got on a school of gill you could load the boat . Anyway , Happy Thanksgiving everyone !

[PL]

Yes the bass fishing is much better because of the shad and yes according to the DNR the shad did hurt the bluegill/redear fishing and one other thing you mentioned hurt it as well, people loading their boats with as many as they could get. My best redear this year was a 10 1/2" with plenty over 9". Caught everyone of them tightlining for crappie or casting very small jigs when I found some. Redears are generally bottom feeders from my experience. Try a carolina rigged outfit with a small hook on the end with a chuck of night crawler or wax worms. I use 6lb line with a 1/8th barrel sinker and about a 24" leader on a 6'6" UL rod with alot of sensitivity.(St.Croix) The edge of the grass is a good place to start and there is at times plenty of grass in Patoka. The fish are there...There are people near our camp who fish for bluegills and redears all the time and do very good. I didn't keep one of them year and after the 4th of july I didn't keep any crappie either. Released them all since I already had plenty of crappie in the freezer. I going to try and make it up there sunday since the weather doesn't look to bad. Going to take our pontoon to rough river for winter storage sat. Gotta work today and fix a underground leak on a fire protection main....Gonna be a little chilly for sure.

Take care......Larry

Mike ,
I have a question . The few times I have been to Boggs I had to pay at the gate to get in . How do the people who illegaly stock shad get past the gate without getting caught ? If the ranger at the gate checks each truck really well they should be able to find anything holding water by rocking the boat and listening for a sloshing sound { except for the fuel tank } which they would have to have to keep the shad alive . Every tournament Ive been in they check livewells to cut down on cheating . Also , if the gate isnt attended at night and anyone can come and go as they please then you will never stop this activity from going on .
Larry , the shad at Patoka have really help the bass fishing { remember the dead sea in the 80's ? } but the bluegill fishing is all but gone because of them , wouldnt you agree ? Used to be if you got on a school of gill you could load the boat . Anyway , Happy Thanksgiving everyone !

[lov2fish]

The panfish are the first to suffer when the shad make their way into the resource. They compete for the same plankton as young of year food. They than effect the bass population in a delayed type of setting. Once the competition starts for food among the panfish and the shad, the bass benefit as they gorge themselves on both. The shad than become to large for the lakes normal predators, i.e. bass,catfish etc. to eat. They actualy become bigger than both those predators. The bass fishing than starts to suffer. You start catching runted bass, or fish that have 4 pound bodies but weigh only 1.5 pounds. They are litteraly starving to death. Shad are not good for the bass in any lake. Maybe in the short term they grow quickly, but in the long run they start to starve to death. Some lakes add other larger predators to help control them like, Musky, Stripers, Wipers and even Walleye to a degree. But, sooner or later the shad take their toll. Bass fishing improved @ Patoka because of the introduction of stripers and the slot limit they placed on the bass for a few years. It wasn't the shad that hepled them, it was the limited control they got over them.

If you want to see a perfect example of a good lake gone to hell, check out Salamonie. The shad have gotten so bad up there that they account for 9 of every 10 fish shocked up. It used to be a great lake for nice sice crappie, bluegill and bass, both smallmouth and largemouth. Now it's just a good lake to go castnet for shad. We now have other issues facing Hoosier resources like the Asian Carp. They are litteraly at the gates of the great lake system and are abundant in the Wabash. If they are in the Wabash, they will most likely make their way into the White-River. Than you have the Kentucky Spot's. If you have your favorite smallmouth river/stream and you start all of sudden catching spot's, it will soon be your past favorite. They effect small streams/rivers smallmouth population the way shad effect lake bound fisheries.

As fishermen/women we are in control of our future fisheries by making the right choices and educating others on the effects of species introduction. I would love to see every lake in the state stocked with smallmouth, but I know that's not the best interest of the resource. Introduction of evasive species will 100% of the time cause issues in the ecosystem, to what extent is still be tallied. Fish smart, kill your minnows when done, don't put them in the water. Make sure your boat is clean when you go from one lake to the other. Remember, vegetation is just as much a problem as evasive species introduction.


Make the right choice when you go and do your resource a favor.



Ray Rigby

[slipbobber]

The panfish are the first to suffer when the shad make their way into the resource. They compete for the same plankton as young of year food. They than effect the bass population in a delayed type of setting. Once the competition starts for food among the panfish and the shad, the bass benefit as they gorge themselves on both. The shad than become to large for the lakes normal predators, i.e. bass,catfish etc. to eat. They actualy become bigger than both those predators. The bass fishing than starts to suffer. You start catching runted bass, or fish that have 4 pound bodies but weigh only 1.5 pounds. They are litteraly starving to death. Shad are not good for the bass in any lake. Maybe in the short term they grow quickly, but in the long run they start to starve to death. Some lakes add other larger predators to help control them like, Musky, Stripers, Wipers and even Walleye to a degree. But, sooner or later the shad take their toll. Bass fishing improved @ Patoka because of the introduction of stripers and the slot limit they placed on the bass for a few years. It wasn't the shad that hepled them, it was the limited control they got over them.

If you want to see a perfect example of a good lake gone to hell, check out Salamonie. The shad have gotten so bad up there that they account for 9 of every 10 fish shocked up. It used to be a great lake for nice sice crappie, bluegill and bass, both smallmouth and largemouth. Now it's just a good lake to go castnet for shad. We now have other issues facing Hoosier resources like the Asian Carp. They are litteraly at the gates of the great lake system and are abundant in the Wabash. If they are in the Wabash, they will most likely make their way into the White-River. Than you have the Kentucky Spot's. If you have your favorite smallmouth river/stream and you start all of sudden catching spot's, it will soon be your past favorite. They effect small streams/rivers smallmouth population the way shad effect lake bound fisheries.

As fishermen/women we are in control of our future fisheries by making the right choices and educating others on the effects of species introduction. I would love to see every lake in the state stocked with smallmouth, but I know that's not the best interest of the resource. Introduction of evasive species will 100% of the time cause issues in the ecosystem, to what extent is still be tallied. Fish smart, kill your minnows when done, don't put them in the water. Make sure your boat is clean when you go from one lake to the other. Remember, vegetation is just as much a problem as evasive species introduction.


Make the right choice when you go and do your resource a favor.



Ray Rigby

Didn't the asian carps start invading the streams anld lakes after the flooding of the Mississippi River from a few years back ?

[bassmanic1]

The Asian carp , or big-head carp , or silver carp , I call em flying carp came from farms that raised them in Mississippi for asian customers who like to eat them . They had the MS river flood the farm ponds and they got loose in the river . They have made there way upstream to all systems that feed the mississippi river . Hovey lake in way southern IN is loaded with them , I had a 7 pounder jump in the boat about 4 years ago and scared the heck out my daughter . I didnt know what it was at the time but I hear guys on the Walbash are welding rebar upright on the sides of the boat or carry trash can lids so they wont get hit . Lov2fish is right on the money about the shad . The only bright spot is that after a couple of decades the eco-system will level itself out , water always finds its level . Look at the zebra mussel that were are gloom & doom in the easly 90's but they have leveled out . Same for the gobys in the great lakes . Lynnville park , east of Evansville , has had shad in it for decades { I have seen the schools myself } and it is a descent pit to fish . It did have some really big bass in the 80's but they started having a lot of tournaments and for some reason the big bass were gone . Just a note to the mid-night stockers at Boggs , if your going to stock them try using Threadfin shad , not Gizzard shad . Threadfins dont get very big and the bass can feed on them longer .

[Moose1am]

Note to PL: I got your voicemail. Check your PM mail box from time to time in here.


Threadfin shad won't survive the cold water winters up this far north. According to the fishery biologist, Dan Carnahan, the only Threadfin shad around here are in the warm water lakes that are cooling lake for the power plants. Gibson and Turtle Creek. And Gibson is now off limits do to the high selenium content.

I wish we had threadfin shad in all our lakes. Man that would be great. Hey maybe with Global Warming our waters will stay warm enough in winter to keep the Threadfin shad alive. Not everyone about Global Warming is gloom and doom. BTW stock prices are up for companies making "SOLAR ENERGY" Device. When their stock price goes from $8 to $80 a share that's telling you something. Don't get in on the bandwagon too late or you are going to be left out.

Now as for Gizzard Shad. If you go online to the Indiana DNR web site and read the reports from the Fishery Biologists and especially those dealing with Patoka Lake you will find what the Biologist have to say about how Gizzard Shad effect the other fish in Patoka Lake. Now if the fishery biologist don't know I doubt that anyone else will know the true effects of gizzard shad in lakes. Check out the IDNR Fishery Research Notes to read these reports and don't forget to check out the ARCHIVES.

Now I'll summarize what they say for those that don't want to go look it up. Gizzard shad compete with the bluegill for zooplanton and tiny meals. Bluegill at Patoka Lake used to grow much larger and faster on average before Gizzard Shad were discovered in Patoka Lake in 1996. The size and growth rates of Patoka Lake's bluegills (sunfish) have been limited ever since the Gizzard Shad populations at Patoka Exploded in 1997. Every fish survey over the past 10 years has shown the size per age growth rates of Sunfish are reduced as compared to pre 1996.

Now I have seen Gizzard shad that were 18" long. It would take a huge Largemouth Bass to eat such a thing. Gizzard shad are filter feeders and they swim though the water and filter out the zooplanton with their gill raker's. Bluegills or sunfish as they are scientifically known as are also filter feeders when they are young. These two species of fish are competing for the same forage. And the Gizzard shad win at the expensive of the sunfish such as bluegills.

Bass are suffering in a way too. Although smaller bluegills can provide feed for the smaller bass. But there are not as many bluegills as there used to be because there are more gizzard shad in Patoka Lake.

Stocking Striper's in Patoka was to help reduce and control the amount of large Gizzard Shad. It's an experiment and hopefully it will work and help control the G Shad population.

Anyone who stocks any fish in any public lake without a permit from IDNR is doing so ILLEGALLY! It's not only illegal but it's not good for the fish even the Largemouth Bass in the long run.

Maybe it's possible that if the stocking of Muskie in Bluegrass Pit down here by Evansville, IN works out and helps the fishery they may stock Muskies in Patoka Lake. They stocked Northern Pike in Patoka back in 1978 but that was long before the Gizzard Shad Forage was established in Patoka lake. Maybe the Northern Pike would have survived better with the Shad in the lake? Who really knows? But if the Muskie can survive in these old coal mined strip pits they surely could survive in Patoka Lake.

You can actually catch 18" Gizzard Shad in KY lake with small tube jigs. I know because I caught two of them in Sulfur Creek on KY Lake back in Nov of 2004. Their scales just literally fall off when you touch them.

[Moose1am]

Hey Mike:

This post or thread got me to thinking. I was wondering how deep the lake is when it's drawn down to 491.6 ft? How much area of the lake will still have deep water. Water deeper than say 20ft?


During the winter the fish hug the bottom as that's where the warmest water is located when there is ice on the lake. So the shad are going to be stuck in the deepest water with all the other fish.

If the water's not that deep then the shad will be exposed to even colder water. I think it's 39 deg F where water is at the most dense. And at 40 deg and 38 deg it starts getting less dense and actually floats above the 39 deg F water.

Oh well I hope that it works.

I know that Dan has got the IDNR to stock muskie down here in Bluegrass Pit and I know he will be keeping a close eye on the muskie to see how well they survive and if they thrive. I'll bet that the Muskie will chase those gizzard shad and be a nightmare for them in open water once the Muskie grow bigger. I can see a 36" long Muskie eating an 18" long Gizzard Shad for breakfast without much of a problem.

In five years he should know if the Muskie can control the Gizzard shad in Bluegrass Pit. Thats if the anglers don't illegally fish them out first. I know a few guys that don't really obey the game laws or size limits on that lake. Thankfully most all the other fisherman obey the game laws and don't poach undersized fish.

I hope that the Muskie experiment down here works out and that they can control the shad population. Those gizzard shad do eat a lot of the same biomass that the other sport fish require to grow.

West Boggs Lake will begin a winter draw down in mid-December as part of an ongoing Gizzard Shad management study being conducted by Indiana Department of Natural Resources fisheries biologists. The lake will be drawn down to an elevation of 491.6 feet above sea level, which is 8 feet below the normal pool level. Managers at West Boggs Park estimate that the target level should be reached in January, pending impacts on the process from rain and or snow melt during the draw downdraw down. They also expect, based on the history of the watershed, that the lake will refill to normal levels sometime in March or April.

During the draw down officials predict that any ice formed on the lake surface may be subject to weakness caused by currents below the ice. For that reason ice fishing at West Boggs is not advised.

[MikeAxsom]

Sorry guys, but I’ve been a little busy lately and seem to have left some questions unanswered. Let me play a little cleanup here.

Bassmaniac1 asked:

Mike ,
I have a question . The few times I have been to Boggs I had to pay at the gate to get in . How do the people who illegaly stock shad get past the gate without getting caught ? If the ranger at the gate checks each truck really well they should be able to find anything holding water by rocking the boat and listening for a sloshing sound { except for the fuel tank } which they would have to have to keep the shad alive . Every tournament Ive been in they check livewells to cut down on cheating . Also , if the gate isnt attended at night and anyone can come and go as they please then you will never stop this activity from going on.

First, West Boggs hosts something like 200,000 visitor days per year of all sorts of outdoor recreation. It would just not be possible, nor would it be tolerated, if we did a high level inspection of every vehicle and boat entering the property. There is the added problem that the gate is only manned about 8 months per year, with the off season open for use at no charge. And there are two causeways on the lake that would negate the idea that the park’s main entrance is the only access point for any illegal stocking effort.

Moose1am asked:

Hey Mike:

This post or thread got me to thinking. I was wondering how deep the lake is when it's drawn down to 491.6 ft? How much area of the lake will still have deep water. Water deeper than say 20ft?

During the winter the fish hug the bottom as that's where the warmest water is located when there is ice on the lake. So the shad are going to be stuck in the deepest water with all the other fish.

If the water's not that deep then the shad will be exposed to even colder water. I think it's 39 deg F where water is at the most dense. And at 40 deg and 38 deg it starts getting less dense and actually floats above the 39 deg F water.

I really don’t have the exact answers to those questions. When the lake is full, the deepest place is right at 29 feet; and the average depth is listed as 12 feet. That would mean that with an eight foot drawdown the deepest place would be 21 feet. I don’t think the math is that simple for the average depth, but it might then be somewhere around four to six feet. The eight foot drawdown is our target, as it gives us an approximate surface area reduction of about 50%. If we go more than that we risk over stressing the game fish; less and we get lower probabilities of a shad kill.

You are correct about the other factors. We think part of what makes this work, when it does work, is the stacking up of stress factors on the shad. If they go deep the bass eat them, but if the go shallow, the cold kills them’ and if they go back and forth, the wear themselves out. And still it only works sometimes and then only to a limited degree. It is not nearly a good a control a a complete renovation of the fishery, but happens to be the only control measure available to us at this time, so that’s what we’ll use

[bassmanic1]

Mike ,
Thanks for the answers and I hope I didnt hit a sore spot . Sounds like Topwater hit the nail on the head and the shad problem wont go away . Maybe stocking Wipers or Stripers might help control them . Many years ago we used to fish at PSI near Princeton IN for Wipers and they are a blast to catch . I would stop at my local grocery stores seafood counter and ask if they had any old shrimp that they couldnt sell , then freeze it and use it for bait for Wipers . It worked very well and we would get some catfish too . I was wondering if anyone up your way fishes Huntingburgh lake . Ive heard that it has some crappie .
Tight lines

[MikeAxsom]

As I’ve noted here before, the West Boggs fishery is managed by the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, Division of Fish and Wildlife, and more directly by the District Fisheries Biologists from the Avoca office. I think they do a fine job, and I’m certain they know far more than I do about fisheries management in general, and invasive species problems in particular. As the manager of the county parks department that owns and operates West Boggs, I feel very fortunate to have such a valuable and professional resource available to provide the fisheries management side of our overall management of West Boggs Lake.
That said, I think it is important for readers here to know and understand a few things. First, if it were feasible for our department to hire our own fisheries experts and take over that duty from IDNR, I would still think long and hard before doing so. But suggestions for me, or my organization, to begin introducing additional species to the lake to accomplish this or that perceived objective are really saying that we should reject the management plans and decisions of the professionals now doing that work, in favor of some other plan that is far less well thought out. All things considered, if I were to drop in a few wipers, I would be doing the same thing as the guys that dropped in a few shad. Fisheries management by a sort of good-ol-boy, trial and error system in not something I am interested in getting into.
I sincerely hope that the opinions expressed by a few here are not correct. Because if it is there is no real chance to manage a fishery like West Boggs without seeing shad, or other species re-introduced no matter what we do. If that is so, then it is not likely that we will see another renovation funded, and that means the fishery will likely be no better overall than it is now. That would be unfortunate for a lot of people, including the many recreational anglers that were finding West Boggs to be a great place to bring their families to pan fish before the shad problem re-occurred. What we are saying by taking this approach is that our fisheries can be no better than the worst case scenario foisted upon us by a few knuckleheads that think they know more than the pros about management. I have come under fire on this forum before for saying that my department is working to make West Boggs a marketable venue for activities other than fishing; but if we can’t have quality fishing we are going to have to have something else. Anglers of all types need to consider such issues and decide if they want to be part of the problem or part of the cure. I think we can do better, and I hope we get the chance.