West Boggs Drawdown

[bassmanic1]

Well ,
In the past Mike has posted about the efforts to get rid of the shad in West Boggs and the staggering amount of money spent doing so . That is why I said what I did about the stocking . As far as "minnows" I know of no bait shop that sells gizzard shad or threadfin shad as live bait - only as cut bait . Why would someone is go to all the trouble to use them as bait by casting nets in a place that has them { the only why to catch them } and then keeping them in a highly areorated ROUND bait bucket { they die in square containers by swimming into the corners } then transporting them to Boggs knowing that if caught they will be heavily fined when they could get shiner minnows for $1.50 a dozen ? I know a little about shad from fishing the Ohio river for cats with my father-in-law . He has his boat totaly rigged for fishing with shad , a 55 gallon half barrel with pumps to keep them livley and throws a mean cast net . They still die very easily which is why they are drawing Boggs down for the winter hopeing the cold kills enough to keep them in check . Birds transporting eggs on their legs has been proven to be a old wifes tale , the eggs die soon after leaveing the water . As for the shad being upstream and the carp in the lake I will leave that to Mike to answer .

[MikeAxsom]

I’m happy to see this discussion taking a turn toward logic. The real hope for the future of our fisheries management in dealing with such problematic issues as illegal shad stocking lies in educating all anglers and outdoors enthusiasts to some of the realities involved. First among those realities is that the cost of fixing problems created by either ill-informed people who think they are doing something good, and the others who know they are doing something wrong but don’t care; is always born by the rest of us in terms of higher fee. It really makes no sense at all to complain about high license fees, boat launch fees, tournament fees, tighter regulations, etc. etc., and then try to justify some of the harmful practices that a few anglers engage in out of some sense of fraternal loyalty.

There are several good reasons to believe that many of Indiana’s lakes are suffering from Gizzard Shad as a direct result of a belief among some bass anglers that stocking shad creates big bass. Unfortunately, there is some truth to that; since it does grow big bass temporarily. The problem is that it destroys nearly all other fishing opportunity in the process; and eventually destroys quality bass fishing as well. Over and over and over we have seen this pattern and every time a lake is left gutted and a fishery ruined, the anglers that used it move to the next available water and complain about how rotten Indian’s fishing is. Managers then are left with the unpleasant task of very expensive renovations, and the almost certain knowledge that as soon as the lake returns to its former productivity someone will decide it would be even better if there was more food for the bass, and then dump in some shad.

Sure there are other ways that shad, and carp, could spread from water to water. But modern fisheries management in our state is staffed with some folks that really do know what they are about in their business. For example, IDNR did not spend a quarter million dollars of your license fee money to renovate West Boggs in 1994, and fail to check the farm ponds upstream. Likewise, they were smart enough to kill out the puddles that were hard to drain. These stories in effort to deny that someone ruins fisheries on purpose are just that. Stories. For some reason when someone says something negative about a fisherman, other fishermen seem driven to defend them. Fishermen are not all created equal. Most of them are great folks, and those of us who work for them are privileged to have the opportunity. But a few are egotistical, and a few a crooked, and a few are just plain stupid. The good ones should not help the others hide in the crowd. We just can’t afford to keep doing the repair work to fix the results of their stupidity.

West Boggs is going to need another total renovation at some point and the cost will be much higher than the $250,000 it cost in 1994. IDNR management will have a hard time making the decision to spend the money for this when they see people still denying that an illegal stocking can, and probably will, make it all for nothing in just a few years. If anglers begin to talk about how bad these things are and helping educate their peers; maybe we will see enough education taking place to take the risk and renovate the lake again. But if the overall angling community remains in denial and blaming the damage on such things as mud on duck legs, any such project would probably be seen as a waste of money and time.

What really needs to happen is for anglers, or anglers groups, i.e., B.A.S.S, to take the lead role in educating anglers about this problem. Every club and every organization should be working to make sure any money spent (which is your mony to start with) to build quality angling opportunities are not at risk from ignorance. I’d like to challenge the Bass fishing community to take that role and become the leaders in changing the attitudes and ideas that are the real problem. We need help in this and I hope anglers are up to the task.

[HOGMONSTER]

MikeAxsom wrote:
Sure there are other ways that shad, and carp, could spread from water to water. But modern fisheries management in our state is staffed with some folks that really do know what they are about in their business. For example, IDNR did not spend a quarter million dollars of your license fee money to renovate West Boggs in 1994, and fail to check the farm ponds upstream. Likewise, they were smart enough to kill out the puddles that were hard to drain. These stories in effort to deny that someone ruins fisheries on purpose are just that. Stories. For some reason when someone says something negative about a fisherman, other fishermen seem driven to defend them. Fishermen are not all created equal. Most of them are great folks, and those of us who work for them are privileged to have the opportunity....
__________________

Mike, here is my problem with what you write.
You imply that I am defending someone who BREAKS THE LAW by stocking fish ILLEGALLY. WHICH I AM NOT!!!! THEY SHOULD BE ARRESTED!!!
You say that the DNR is so smart and above reproach that to suggest that maybe that there were literally 4 or 5 shad that were not killed somewhere upstream or in a puddle is just not possible is obserd! I would surmise that the people doing the renovation and not getting rid of ALL the shad would potentially be in a position to lose there jobs unless they had a scapegoat... scapegoat, meet Bass Fisherman.
You still yet failed to acknowledge the "minnow bucket" in your response here. This is the #1 way fish are transported inadvertantly to other bodies of water. I don't know one Bass Fisherman who thinks carp "help grow bigger bass" and I don't know anyone who would transport carp, but in case you don't know there are a lot of carp in west boggs lake. How did they get there? - upstream, minnow buckets, etc., and if they get in that way, then is it not at least possible to assume that a shad or three could find there way to the lake the same way????
Please do not misunderstand me, I fully acknowledge that there could be a misguided law-breaker who happens to fish for Bass, but that does not make them any more representative of Bass Fisherman than Charles Manson is to white people.- By the way, have you prosecuted anyone for stocking shad??? Because you would think that to make the claim that it has to be a fisherman that you would of had some proof, then we could take other "stories" off the table. If you don't deal with ALL "stories", then it does not matter what you do, because carp and shad will find there way back into west boggs or any other lake for that matter.

_________
Mike Axsom also wrote: (about BASS FISHERMAN)
But a few are egotistical, and a few a crooked, and a few are just plain stupid. The good ones should not help the others hide in the crowd. We just can’t afford to keep doing the repair work to fix the results of their stupidity.

Mike, I would simpy remind YOU that you can replace BASS FISHERMAN with DNR, Conservation Officer, Police Officer, Attorney, Doctor, Politician and maybe even LAKE MANAGER!

So please stop throwing stones, especially when you live in a glass house.

[topwater2007]

Mike,
I doubt you could ever keep shad out of a lake like yours. Waveland can't do it, Glenn Flint can't do it. It just can't be done.

You need to manage it best you can with what you are doing, and that is all you can do.

I personally have my own ponds to manage. I have successfully kept shad and carp out of all of them, by of course banning minnows and strict control of who I let fish the ponds.

Public access means you don't have control over the water. Laws are only to keep honest people honest.

[HOGMONSTER]

Bassmaniac,
I am simply saying that some people will trap there own minnows in ponds or creeks nearby to use for bait. 99% of the time they are using fathead minnows, but sometimes other species such as suckers, carp minnows and shad minnows can be mixed in, even if it is only 1 or 2 out of 2 dozen.

I have personally found shad minnows, suckers, carp, and even a pickeral in my bucket that I have purchased from bait stores, so it does happen and the novice fishenman that goes once or twice a year does not know the difference. And often times when they are done fishing they dump the minnow bucket in the lake, even though we know you are not supposed to.

Furthermore, I believe it is illegal to intentionally use LIVE shad as bait in Indiana anyway, so even if you used a casting net to catch them it would be illegal to use them for bait.(while alive)

[MikeAxsom]

Thanks Hogmonster, for making some of my points better than I could have possibly done. And now the folks know why more managers don’t use the board to relay information.

You are correct that dishonesty and stupidity can and does cross all boundaries and exists in all groups of people. But consider this. Resource managers, Conservation Officers and Biologists all come to their jobs through a very exact process. Most have at least a BS degree, and many have advanced degrees. Then they are subjected to a heavily buyer friendly job market. Each position that comes open can have hundreds, and sometimes thousands of applicants. The agencies then hire the best candidates to the lowest positions, and they are given a chance to work their way up the chain of command to actual management. That is why you almost never hear of a Conservation Officer quitting or being fired. Those without the right stuff just seldom make it into the system to begin with. Can it happen? Sure it can. Does it happen? Almost never.

Compare that with the group we call anglers. The only qualification to that fraternity is to have time to go fishing, and maybe buy a license. Or maybe not. As a group, fishermen can and do include doctors, lawyers, engineers, rocket scientists, athletes, ministers and political leaders. Even more anglers are factory workers, salesmen, carpenters, plumbers, farmers, teachers and police officers. But because it is what it is, the group also includes liars, cheats, rapists, drug dealers, murderers, deadbeats and idiots of every stripe. Fishing may be the universal sport. Saying that does not take anything away from the good people who like to fish. I am one of them, as I am sure are you. But being a fisherman does not make you anything else.

There are, as I said, many reason that those in resource management see intentional illegal shad introduction as a major problem. Not all of that can be shared with people on an internet website. The West Boggs investigation and reward offer turned up enough evidence to convince me that we not only know what happened, but who was involved. There was just not enough to take to court; and partly because of informants not being willing to get involved to the point of seeing others charged. I do know enough to say quite bluntly that your position on that is wrong.

[PL]

I find it hard to believe that you have some kind of proof of shad being dumped in but yet no one will come forward to help with the prosecution of those who supposely did it. I'd say your sources and their information are worthless or someone would have been charged by now.

How many years has this being going on?

The stripers/bass at Patoka seem to be taking care of the shad so far. I seen fewer schools of shad this year than in the past and I'm on the lake most weekends from late feb. till it's just too cold and nasty to go.


Larry

[MikeAxsom]

I find it hard to believe that you have some kind of proof of shad being dumped in but yet no one will come forward to help with the prosecution of those who supposely did it.

"some kind of proof" covers a lot of territory. I already said that the information we had did was not sufficient to take to court, so from the legal sense it did not constitute poof. But the sources (there were more than one with the same or similar information) were credible enough to cause me to believe that they did know what they were talking about.

I'd say your sources and their information are worthless or someone would have been charged by now.

It is not my intent to use this forum to assess the value of any information that was received about this issue. But to say it was worthless is an error. The information did point to a specific group of anglers in a specific area, some of whom we have noticed seem to be a little too quick to denounce the information and its sources without even knowing what was said or who said it. So in that sense the worth of discussion the matter may still be helping sort out the good guys from the bad guys, even if none of it can go to court for this particular case. It is always good to know who your friends are, and your foes.

[PL]

So bascially all you have is speculation from 3rd parties who don't want to get involved? Sounds like a fish story to me. I'd say the minnows being dumped is probably a good place to start. I asked you earlier how long this has been going on and you didn't answer. Seems to me it's been about 8/10 years now? Is that close to being accurate? Anyway good luck on getting your lake straightened out.

"some kind of proof" covers a lot of territory. I already said that the information we had did was not sufficient to take to court, so from the legal sense it did not constitute poof. But the sources (there were more than one with the same or similar information) were credible enough to cause me to believe that they did know what they were talking about.

It is not my intent to use this forum to assess the value of any information that was received about this issue. But to say it was worthless is an error. The information did point to a specific group of anglers in a specific area, some of whom we have noticed seem to be a little too quick to denounce the information and its sources without even knowing what was said or who said it. So in that sense the worth of discussion the matter may still be helping sort out the good guys from the bad guys, even if none of it can go to court for this particular case. It is always good to know who your friends are, and your foes.

[MikeAxsom]

So bascially all you have is speculation from 3rd parties who don't want to get involved? Sounds like a fish story to me. I'd say the minnows being dumped is probably a good place to start. I asked you earlier how long this has been going on and you didn't answer. Seems to me it's been about 8/10 years now? Is that close to being accurate? Anyway good luck on getting your lake straightened out.

Actually it has been about 7 years, and about 5 since the active investigation ended. The shad problem will likely continue to deny anglers some fishing opportunity for the foreseeable future. There is probably not going to be another renovation anytime soon; and maybe not at all unless the people that can make the decision to spend the necessary money are convinced it will be worthwhile.

And yes, of course it is possible that the information sources were just telling lies. They were fishermen themselves, and tournament fishermen to boot. And part of the reason they didn't want to be named or further involved was that they feared being harassed by other tournament anglers as turncoats. Two different guys from two different clubs; both of which told almost the same story about some guys from yet a third club bragging about their exploits. They both identified the club to which the braggarts belonged, and gave names and the circumstances of the conversations. I still think they were telling what they thought was the truth, but maybe it was all just hokum.

[bassmanic1]

Mike ,
I have a question . The few times I have been to Boggs I had to pay at the gate to get in . How do the people who illegaly stock shad get past the gate without getting caught ? If the ranger at the gate checks each truck really well they should be able to find anything holding water by rocking the boat and listening for a sloshing sound { except for the fuel tank } which they would have to have to keep the shad alive . Every tournament Ive been in they check livewells to cut down on cheating . Also , if the gate isnt attended at night and anyone can come and go as they please then you will never stop this activity from going on .
Larry , the shad at Patoka have really help the bass fishing { remember the dead sea in the 80's ? } but the bluegill fishing is all but gone because of them , wouldnt you agree ? Used to be if you got on a school of gill you could load the boat . Anyway , Happy Thanksgiving everyone !

[PL]

Yes the bass fishing is much better because of the shad and yes according to the DNR the shad did hurt the bluegill/redear fishing and one other thing you mentioned hurt it as well, people loading their boats with as many as they could get. My best redear this year was a 10 1/2" with plenty over 9". Caught everyone of them tightlining for crappie or casting very small jigs when I found some. Redears are generally bottom feeders from my experience. Try a carolina rigged outfit with a small hook on the end with a chuck of night crawler or wax worms. I use 6lb line with a 1/8th barrel sinker and about a 24" leader on a 6'6" UL rod with alot of sensitivity.(St.Croix) The edge of the grass is a good place to start and there is at times plenty of grass in Patoka. The fish are there...There are people near our camp who fish for bluegills and redears all the time and do very good. I didn't keep one of them year and after the 4th of july I didn't keep any crappie either. Released them all since I already had plenty of crappie in the freezer. I going to try and make it up there sunday since the weather doesn't look to bad. Going to take our pontoon to rough river for winter storage sat. Gotta work today and fix a underground leak on a fire protection main....Gonna be a little chilly for sure.

Take care......Larry

Mike ,
I have a question . The few times I have been to Boggs I had to pay at the gate to get in . How do the people who illegaly stock shad get past the gate without getting caught ? If the ranger at the gate checks each truck really well they should be able to find anything holding water by rocking the boat and listening for a sloshing sound { except for the fuel tank } which they would have to have to keep the shad alive . Every tournament Ive been in they check livewells to cut down on cheating . Also , if the gate isnt attended at night and anyone can come and go as they please then you will never stop this activity from going on .
Larry , the shad at Patoka have really help the bass fishing { remember the dead sea in the 80's ? } but the bluegill fishing is all but gone because of them , wouldnt you agree ? Used to be if you got on a school of gill you could load the boat . Anyway , Happy Thanksgiving everyone !