Convention of Islamics

[apb]

...He's a Muslim boy's and he was born in Africa, I'll go to my grave beleiving it!

I think the fact that the Clinton campaign could not dig up anything that would indicate Obama was not a natural born US citizen says a lot. But if you like, the section below is from http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_the_usa.html Check out the page for photos of the birth certificate and other info mentioned in the cut and paste. Got any hard data to back up your claims?
Born in the U.S.A.
August 21, 2008
Updated: November 1, 2008
The truth about Obama's birth certificate.
Summary
In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen. But the image prompted more blog-based skepticism about the document's authenticity. And recently, author Jerome Corsi, whose book attacks Obama, said in a TV interview that the birth certificate the campaign has is "fake."
We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.
Update, Nov. 1: The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu.
Analysis
Update Nov. 1: The Associated Press quoted Chiyome Fukino as saying that both she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.
Fukino also was quoted by several other news organizations. The Honolulu Advertiser quoted Fukino as saying the agency had been bombarded by requests, and that the registrar of statistics had even been called in at home in the middle of the night.
Honolulu Advertiser, Nov. 1 2008: "This has gotten ridiculous," state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. "There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy." . . . Will this be enough to quiet the doubters? "I hope so," Fukino said. "We need to get some work done."
Fukino said she has personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures."
Since we first wrote about Obama's birth certificate on June 16, speculation on his citizenship has continued apace. Some claim that Obama posted a fake birth certificate to his Web page. That charge leaped from the blogosphere to the mainstream media earlier this week when Jerome Corsi, author of a book attacking Obama, repeated the claim in an Aug. 15 interview with Steve Doocy on Fox News.
Corsi: Well, what would be really helpful is if Senator Obama would release primary documents like his birth certificate. The campaign has a false, fake birth certificate posted on their website. How is anybody supposed to really piece together his life?
Doocy: What do you mean they have a "false birth certificate" on their Web site?
Corsi: The original birth certificate of Obama has never been released, and the campaign refuses to release it.
Doocy: Well, couldn't it just be a State of Hawaii-produced duplicate?
Corsi: No, it's a -- there's been good analysis of it on the Internet, and it's been shown to have watermarks from Photoshop. It's a fake document that's on the Web site right now, and the original birth certificate the campaign refuses to produce.

Corsi isn't the only skeptic claiming that the document is a forgery. Among the most frequent objections we saw on forums, blogs and e-mails are:
The birth certificate doesn't have a raised seal.
It isn't signed.
No creases from folding are evident in the scanned version.
In the zoomed-in view, there's a strange halo around the letters.
The certificate number is blacked out.
The date bleeding through from the back seems to say "2007," but the document wasn't released until 2008.
The document is a "certification of birth," not a "certificate of birth."
Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it's stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs.

The Obama birth certificate, held by FactCheck writer Joe Miller

Alvin T. Onaka's signature stamp

The raised seal
Blowup of text
You can click on the photos to get full-size versions, which haven't been edited in any way, except that some have been rotated 90 degrees for viewing purposes.
The certificate has all the elements the State Department requires for proving citizenship to obtain a U.S. passport: "your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records." The names, date and place of birth, and filing date are all evident on the scanned version, and you can see the seal above.
The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response.
The scan released by the campaign shows halos around the black text, making it look (to some) as though the text might have been pasted on top of an image of security paper. But the document itself has no such halos, nor do the close-up photos we took of it. We conclude that the halo seen in the image produced by the campaign is a digital artifact from the scanning process.
We asked the Obama campaign about the date stamp and the blacked-out certificate number. The certificate is stamped June 2007, because that's when Hawaii officials produced it for the campaign, which requested that document and "all the records we could get our hands on" according to spokesperson Shauna Daly. The campaign didn't release its copy until 2008, after speculation began to appear on the Internet questioning Obama's citizenship. The campaign then rushed to release the document, and the rush is responsible for the blacked-out certificate number. Says Shauna: "[We] couldn't get someone on the phone in Hawaii to tell us whether the number represented some secret information, and we erred on the side of blacking it out. Since then we've found out it's pretty irrelevant for the outside world." The document we looked at did have a certificate number; it is 151 1961 - 010641.

Blowup of certificate number
Some of the conspiracy theories that have circulated about Obama are quite imaginative. One conservative blogger suggested that the campaign might have obtained a valid Hawaii birth certificate, soaked it in solvent, then reprinted it with Obama's information. Of course, this anonymous blogger didn't have access to the actual document and presents this as just one possible "scenario" without any evidence that such a thing actually happened or is even feasible.
We also note that so far none of those questioning the authenticity of the document have produced a shred of evidence that the information on it is incorrect. Instead, some speculate that somehow, maybe, he was born in another country and doesn't meet the Constitution's requirement that the president be a "natural-born citizen."
We think our colleagues at PolitiFact.com, who also dug into some of these loopy theories put it pretty well: "It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible. But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over."
In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:

Obama's birth announcement
The announcement was posted by a pro-Hillary Clinton blogger who grudgingly concluded that Obama "likely" was born Aug. 4, 1961 in Honolulu.
Of course, it's distantly possible that Obama's grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat. The evidence is clear: Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.
Update, August 26: We received responses to some of our questions from the Hawaii Department of Health. They couldn't tell us anything about their security paper, but they did answer another frequently-raised question: why is Obama's father's race listed as "African"? Kurt Tsue at the DOH told us that father's race and mother's race are supplied by the parents, and that "we accept what the parents self identify themselves to be." We consider it reasonable to believe that Barack Obama, Sr., would have thought of and reported himself as "African." It's certainly not the slam dunk some readers have made it out to be.
When we asked about the security borders, which look different from some other examples of Hawaii certifications of live birth, Kurt said "The borders are generated each time a certified copy is printed. A citation located on the bottom left hand corner of the certificate indicates which date the form was revised." He also confirmed that the information in the short form birth certificate is sufficient to prove citizenship for "all reasonable purposes."
by Jess Henig, with Joe Miller
Sources
United States Department of State. "Application for a U.S. Passport." Accessed 20 Aug. 2008.
State of Hawaii Department of Health. "Request for Certified Copy of Birth Record." Accessed 20 Aug. 2008.
Hollyfield, Amy. "Obama's Birth Certificate: Final Chapter." Politifact.com. 27 Jun. 2008.
The Associated Press. "State declares Obama birth certificate genuine" 31 Oct 2008.
Nakaso, Dan. "Obama's certificate of birth OK, state says; Health director issues voucher in response to 'ridiculous' barrage" Honolulu Advertiser 1 Nov 2008.

[Tom523]

You're darn tootin ol' George would not have put up with this. No sir! He would have said "to hell with the constitution and the first amendment, nuke em!" That's our kind of pretzeldent! Yep, us repubs are against big gov't and interferance with our lives, except in stuff like this.

Soooo, given the illogic of this thread: back in the early 80's while in Knoxville, TN, a white supremist group held a march in town. AR15's in hand and all. How come ol Reagan didn't shut them down? Yep, just goes to prove he had a white sheet in his closet and was a grand dragon and all.

Sorry gents, but the first amendment of the constitution prohibits the gov't from interfering with your freedom of speech. You allow them to stop this one, where does it all stop? Who has the say as far as what can be said? You really want to be like China or Iran? F that!

From the story, looks like the group has been around for a while. So, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II did not have them put on the terrorist list, but suddenly thats what they are and Obama should be stepping in to interfer with local doings? I have to admit, I do not had not heard of them until this story. Based on the titles of some of the conference sessions, I really doubt I would like, or agree with, what they have to say. Even so, our constitution allows them the freedom of speech for the conference. Likewise, you have the freedom of speech to tell them they are full of it. If there are proven ties to terrorist activities, all bets are off: boot them.

Andrew

This is great! Now the FBI and CIA can find out about this organization and photograph supporters and maybe shut these crazies down. What do you think would happen in any other country if an organization dedicated to the fall of Islam and the rise of Capitalism would have a convention there? Let them have it , gather evidence of subversive behavior and at the very least deport them back to the land that they came from and so dearly love. But don't stomp on my first amendment right like congress is doing with their hate crimes bill supporting gays and lesbians! They attached it to the defense appropriations bill! We will be seeing preachers go to jail because the preach that homosexual activity is wrong!

[GeoFisher]

This is great! Now the FBI and CIA can find out about this organization and photograph supporters and maybe shut these crazies down.

Hey...........never thought of it that way............

If they don't end up blowing up the sears tower or something.............Maybe we can get them and put them in quantanimo............

Oh right.........THAT's no longer OPEN.

Later,

gEo

[mhall]

It was my understanding and I think I'm right that it was NOT a scanned certificate buta computer GENERATED one because they could not find the original. Are you absolutely sure it was a scanned copy and if so why not show the original one, because there wasn't one. Money and power Andrew can get alot done my friend. You believe the way you want on this one you won't change my mind with long winded copy and pastes.

[apb]

What makes more sense:

1) Obama was born in the US and the documents noted above are real

or

2) Obama somehow tricked a number of gov't agencies into believing that he is a natural born US citizen, that a number of people assisted in covering this up and have remained quiet about it, and that neither the Clinton nor the campaine could dig up any dirt to shoot him down during the election season (note that the Clinton campain was the one to find the birth note in the paper).

Seriously, when you actually start looking at facts and think about it, you realize the ring wing nut job radio folk who are promoting this BS are completely out of their minds.

Andrew

[mhall]

What makes more sense:

1) Obama was born in the US and the documents noted above are real

or

2) Obama somehow tricked a number of gov't agencies into believing that he is a natural born US citizen, that a number of people assisted in covering this up and have remained quiet about it, and that neither the Clinton nor the campaine could dig up any dirt to shoot him down during the election season (note that the Clinton campain was the one to find the birth note in the paper).

Seriously, when you actually start looking at facts and think about it, you realize the ring wing nut job radio folk who are promoting this BS are completely out of their minds.

Andrew

Doesn't sound that far fetched to me at all. Look at how he was elected? Acorn,........ dead people voting, some voting two and three times. The American people will never be able to see all the wrong doing's that went on to make the new King. In fact those that think he walks on water like yourself can't bring yourself to even think his excellency could have done anything illegal to get in office. You can only compare him to Bush so long, then we have to take a look at what he really is.

[Grumpy]

Andrew, I started to write much more but it could be considered against the rules, so I will just say I stand by my previous post.

Grumpy

[apb]

Doesn't sound that far fetched to me at all. Look at how he was elected? Acorn,........ dead people voting, some voting two and three times. The American people will never be able to see all the wrong doing's that went on to make the new King. In fact those that think he walks on water like yourself can't bring yourself to even think his excellency could have done anything illegal to get in office. You can only compare him to Bush so long, then we have to take a look at what he really is.

And you are so blinded by hate that you'll believe any kind of conspiricy that paints him in a bad light. Check the facts for yourself. For example,
on the birth certificate, if you had read even the first paragraph of what I posted you would have seen " FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. " Yes, the real certificate, not a scan. Plenty of other evidence too. Got any facts to back up your statements?

I don't believe for a second that Obama walks on water. If you'll read back through my posts you'll see where I have critizied him on several accounts. Conversely, you'll also see where I supported some of Bush's decisions.

btw, registered independant. I've voted for both parties and against both.

grumpy, post in a respectable manner and there will not be an issue. If you disagree with my post, I'm happy to read over your thoughts. May be I'll learn something.

Andrew

[mhall]

Why hasn't any of the general public seen it?? Why was it held under such scrutiny and darkness for so long. I can find stuff on both sides that say contradictary statements. I did read what you posted settle down big fella you seem to be getting your blood pressure up a bit.

Just for the record I don't hate him, hell I can't hate anybody I've never met before.
I do however hate his liberal policies and crazy ideas for his so called new America of change.
You just assume since I can't find anything I like about his job he is performing that I hate him, you know what they say about assuming.

You said to me once you hated Ronald Reagan or at least couldn't stand the man, I think is what you said. Personally I think Ole Ronnie was one of the greatest Presidents we've ever had. Opinion are just that, opinions. You say he was born in Hawaii, I say he was born in Africa, do either one of us really know the truth for sure, no not really, so please quit insinuating (spelling) that I am a dumb uneducated redneck because I choose to believe the way I do. I work with a couple of fellas that have Master's in their fields and they think he was born in Africa to.

Oh and Fastcheck.org, Wow, God forbid they wouldn't dare post anything untrue or tainted. Money and power, Money and power, it can do alot!

I just love these little heated debates, lol.

[apb]

"Why hasn't any of the general public seen it?? Why was it held under such scrutiny and darkness for so long. I can find stuff on both sides that say contradictary statements...."

I haven't seen McCain's, Bush's, Clinton's, etc, either. So what. As far as for why it was held back, I can only guess. Given that the election commission had accepted his application, he was legit. If he had taken the racid bait and fed the troll then he would have ended up spending a good deal of time and money debunking every ridiculous claim what some wacko brought rather than spending the time trying to get his message out.

"... you seem to be getting your blood pressure up a bit."

Blood pressure is just fine.

"...I do however hate his liberal policies and crazy ideas for his so called new America of change..."

Certainly legitimate. Cannot argue with you there. I don't agree with all of his policies either.

"...You just assume since I can't find anything I like about his job he is performing that I hate him, you know what they say about assuming..."

No, its the constant tone of contempt in your posts (and other right leaning folks on this site). The "messiah", "king", "not my president", etc. that certainly suggest it. If you say you don't hate him, your word it good enough for me. I'll accept that.

"Opinion are just that, opinions."

Agree.

"You say he was born in Hawaii, I say he was born in Africa, do either one of us really know the truth for sure, no not really..."

Disagree. While I have not personally held Obama's birth certificate in my hands (I would not know how to authenticate it anyway), the evidence out there make it highly unlikely that its a fake. If the story had any merit to it (it was debunked back in 2008), either Clinton or McCain would have used it to their advantage. However, both ignored it. If he were not a natural born citizen, there is no way that the DNC would have let him run either. If he was found out to be not eligible for election, they would have wasted a whole lot of time and money, in addition to losing the election. The backfire from that would have been enormous.

"so please quit insinuating (spelling) that I am a dumb uneducated redneck because I choose to believe the way I do."

I have never insinuated (I can't spell either!) that, nor do I believe it.

"Oh and Fastcheck.org, Wow, God forbid they wouldn't dare post anything untrue or tainted. Money and power, Money and power, it can do alot!"
From the Factcheck.org site: "We are a nonpartisan, nonprofit "consumer advocate" for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics.....accepts NO funding from business corporations, labor unions, political parties, lobbying organizations or individuals...."

From what I've seen on the site, those statements appear to be pretty accurate. They debunk claims from both the left and right pretty equally. In fact, there are several new ones up there right now debunking some recent comments Obama made. If you check their archives, however, you'll find that the "acorn scandel" is not quite what some make it out to be. Seriously, they are worth checking out.

"I just love these little heated debates, lol."

Glad that I can bring some joy to your life If you are interested in a more useful debate, I have an even better topic. I have been working on a new plug for smallies. Got the feeling its gonna produce some of the best quality creek smallies I've seen. Come on down and we'll debate that one on the creek.

Andrew

[GeoFisher]

I have been working on a new plug for smallies. Got the feeling its gonna produce some of the best quality creek smallies I've seen. Come on down and we'll debate that one on the creek.

Andrew

Man o Man.........I'd LOVE to try out a new bait on some of those NORTH of the border smallies.......

Headed back up to Quetico and the BWCA in two weeks.......

Yea, I know........the board will be quiet for a while........Maybe Grumpy and MHall will keep the fire burning.......

Wohoo.

Later,

Geo

[mhall]

Good luck George, Andrew I'll be in touch. I'm very intrigued by this new secret weapon!