Shad Post....

[HOGMONSTER]

Forgive me for not understanding, but who is the person, that you guys have proof of, that dumped shad into a lake via a minnow bucket that they had seined up from another lake? When did you guys see it happen? Which lake was it? And did you guys turn the person in?

Seems like it is ok to point fingers at everyone except a few bass fishermen. I know for a fact that there is proof that a bass club put shad into a large Indiana reservoir. However, as you know, proof and enough proof to prosecute are two different things.

FishNnut,
Why don't you name names or at least the club. Eyewitness testimony will suffice to prosecute.

Why don't you go sit on a bench next to a group of people fishing with minnows and see what they do with them when they are done. Not everyone buys them from a bait shop and I have personally got other minnows that were mixed in with the chubs like shinners and shad at a bait shop even though most do a good job at separating them anymore, that didn't used to be the case.
My dad used to have a minnow trap and a seine that he would use to get minnows out of a creek that connected to the white river. Mostly we would have chub minnows, but we would have other minnows as well and I am sure even some shad on occassion. Now I was only 5 or 6 years old, but I know for a fact that when we were done fishing he would dump our minnow bucket back into whatever pond or lake we were fishing. It was not done maliciosly, but it was done because that is what EVERYONE did at the time. Now think of all the people who fish with minnows and think about what happens when they are done fishing. Most people, even today, dump their buckets back into the lake. Very few actually put them in the trash. Now lets think about the fact that just a few gizzard shad can become millions in just a few years. What are the odds.... I would say pretty good.

Now I will also say that someone can decide they are going to play lake manager for the day and ILLEGALLY transport shad or other fish to a lake. I am sure it has happened, but I will not single out a hugely diverse group and blame them as a whole for the actions of a few who may or may not be part of that group to begin with. It is as irrelvent as that person being a black, white, or purple person... I mean, would you say those white people put shad in the lake, or those black people did???.... It is irrelevent.

Have a great day!

[TR21Bassin]

Usually I don't get in on these posts but I don't see how the shad are ruining any fisheries. A lot of people use West Boggs, but do you think that they would really have the Bass population they have without the shad. Also, I've been fishing that lake for 5-6 years and it appears the shad population has declined so I don't see the argument. Some say it has hurt the crappie and bluegill, also don't see it. A friend of mine went up there multiple times this spring and had no problems catching limits of big crappie. Not trying to arue but just don't see it. What I think has hurt this lake more than anything is the killing of the shoreline grass. By removing this structure/cover the fry from spawns have no where to hide to seek protection.

If shad are so bad how come KY/Barkley don't see the issue, how about Patoka? Also, they Bass fishing did go down there for several years but now is coming back in leaps because the grass is coming back.

Sure some IDNR biologists have said "Someone has put the shad in these lakes". From what I've seen in Indiana the 10 years I've lived here is Indiana doesn't give a crap about their fisheries or outdoor opportunities. Prime example the amount of land waiting to be sold to the Patoka Wildlife Refuge System yet Indiana's politicians won't get the money. Many states monitor, and actually do things to improve the outdoor activities, and promote their outdoors which then the whole state reaps the benefits from people coming into the area and spending money.

Charlie

[lroberts]

TR21Bassin......shad hurt and somewhat help a small lake like Boggs. In the short-term some of the already larger bass can gorge on the big shad....and get BIGGER themselves....like we are seeing now. However, shad present another link in the food web.....therefore you have more competition and less food for some fish and in general fewer game species. As the BIG bass die off or are caught you are left with a stunted group of smaller bass who didn't have enough food to eat, or could not feed on the larger shad. KY Lake is not a good comparison for Boggs because of the sheer size difference...not to mention it is part of a major river system. You're right about the grass though. Monroe is really struggling also without the presence of grass. Ky Lake is also coming back because the grass is. Where do you mainly fish????

[SteveM4A1]

FishNnut,
My dad used to have a minnow trap and a seine that he would use to get minnows out of a creek that connected to the white river. Mostly we would have chub minnows, but we would have other minnows as well and I am sure even some shad on occassion. Now I was only 5 or 6 years old, but I know for a fact that when we were done fishing he would dump our minnow bucket back into whatever pond or lake we were fishing. It was not done maliciosly, but it was done because that is what EVERYONE did at the time. Now think of all the people who fish with minnows and think about what happens when they are done fishing. Most people, even today, dump their buckets back into the lake. Very few actually put them in the trash. Now lets think about the fact that just a few gizzard shad can become millions in just a few years. What are the odds.... I would say pretty good.


Have a great day!

Did we not all grow up like this? I did not know the consequences until about 6 years ago. I can't think of one person in my life (all avid fishermen) that did not used to dump their minnow buckets back into the water to give the fish extra food.

[TR21Bassin]

lroberts,

If your asking what state then its KY. As far as KY/Barkley, it just depends on the time of year. Typically I spend most of my time between KY Dam and 68/80 bridge.

I know the shad compete with smaller fish for food but there are still several small bass in Boggs along with crappie and bluegill. As stated before, I think the biggest issue there is the grass kill. The decrease in bluegill and crappie for some I think is the amount of fish thats hauled away from it.

Charlie

[GeoFisher]

If shad are so bad how come KY/Barkley don't see the issue, how about Patoka? Also, they Bass fishing did go down there for several years but now is coming back in leaps because the grass is coming back.

Charlie

Well.......West Boggs is about the size of Smith Bay.....that is WHY......AND don't KID yourself about Patoka.....the IDNR stocked STRIPERS there to help with the SHAD issue....and they are now starting to stock Walleye there also.

Patoka has not produced and will NEVER produce the quality bluegill and crappie that it did 10-15 years ago.....NOT as long as the shad are there. And I think the bass fishing, while you can catch some bigger fish, you don't catch NEARLY the numbers......

I don't have the answer to this, but I do know from fishing patoka for YEARS, that it has gone downhill.

Later...

Geo

[Dave Stewart]

Dave, Peter, etc.;

I am sorry to learn here that Fishin.com has taken the position in this long running debate that the majority of fisheries managers and lake managers are wrong, and that the issue is not something that should continue to be debated. I have often noted that the threads that contain this issue end up having some of the site's largest view counts. That would make it appear that a lot of people are at least reading about the issue, while only a few actually post. It would seem to me that from a site admin perspective you might want to see the discussion continue. I know as a lake manager I want the discussion to continue, even though I do appreciate that the insults and personal attacks get pretty silly at times. But even that keeps people aware of the issue, and may just make some of those readers who don't post to stop and think about things that they might otherwise not think about before they do something harmful to the resource.

I wish people would understand that when someone in a management agency says that bass anglers may be responsible for some of the shad introductions, that is never, ever, meant to imply that all bass anglers are culpable. I know many bass anglers, and we host dozens of tournaments with some excellent clubs each year. Most of them are great folks and serious about their conservation ethic. I agree that it is not fair that so many times this issue gets discussed someone seems to always throw up the straw man argument that managers should not paint all bass anglers with the same brush. We don't. It is the people who throw up that argument that try to twist the topic into that shape, as you just did in your explanation of why you deleted the other thread. I personally see the bass tournament community as the best hope for getting this issue on the road to a resolution, but for that to happen they need to quit falling for that straw man ploy when someone throws it out there.

All that said, I do appreciate your position that this is your board, and since you indicate here that you share the opinion that managers are wrong who press the idea that some bass anglers are do so stupid things based on misinformation. Your desire for "proof" before a discussion can take place makes this an unlikely spot for the discussion to continue. So be it. I regret that the people who so often come here to see this management discussion from both side will no longer be able to do so.

I assume that since this post violates your TOS in that it does discuss board rules and comments, it is probable that my future access to the board will be denied. Please feel free to do that, as I will no longer be visiting Fishin.com anyway. Anyone out there who reads this before it gets taken down, feel free to contact me through my work email. If you know who I am and where I work, I'm sure you can find it online.

First of all let me say this....fishin.com has not taken any position on this matter. The post was deleted by ME...not Peter or anyone else. I am a volunteer moderator for this site. As a moderator I am charged to enforce the rules of the site...and I am not going to let a thread stay on the board when folks start slamming one another or name callling one another....period. Now, if you think that we should leave those type threads up for the kids that visit this site to read just so we can get a hit count or because some folks are interested in reading those kind of threads..then you are dead wrong.

As far as my thowing up a "straw dog", that is far from the truth. Fact is I said in my post (my opinion..I'll say that again MY OPINION) that some bass anglers may be responsible for the introduction of the shad and I also offered another possible source of the problem could be those dumping their unused minnows in the lake. Now if offering an example of another possible source of the problem is not to your liking...I am sorry...but you as a fisheries manager should know that most of the time, when there is a problem concerning health of a fishery, that it is normally a combination of things to include many natural occurances.

Since I make my living and have for many years on the water as a guide and angler, I think I am more than a little qualified to give my opinion. I probably have more time on the water in the past year than you do in the past 20 years...and I did not become a nationally recognized bass fishing guide without know just a little about what goes on in a fishery nor without having read and learned extensively about fish, habitat, invasive species, etc. etc..etc...it may surprise you that I actually get paid to teach classes about fishing that are focused on shad and that one of the things that I teach in my classes is the detrimental effect that overpopulations of shad can have on a fishery, especially in your part of the country. As I said before, the source of contamination of shad could be from over zealous bass anglers AND people that are unknowingly and ignorantly dumping some shad minnows in the water instead of on the land when they are finished fishing with their live bait and have some left.

I have no proof of either...nor do you...all we have is opinions....and opinions won't solve the problem you are having...only actions will.

[Lucky1]

As to the comment about Patoka and the downhill fishing.....

BFL last weekend took 21 pounds to win and I was talking with another person who finished in the top 10 who stated he had 15 keepers during the tournament...

21 pounds may make the cut this weekend for the FLW Cup and those are the best anglers out there!!!

The fishing is not that bad if you know how and where to catch them.

[redearhoosier]

As to the comment about Patoka and the downhill fishing.....

BFL last weekend took 21 pounds to win and I was talking with another person who finished in the top 10 who stated he had 15 keepers during the tournament...

21 pounds may make the cut this weekend for the FLW Cup and those are the best anglers out there!!!

The fishing is not that bad if you know how and where to catch them.

The downhill fishing at Patoka was referring to panfishing, not necessarily bass fishing. I've got a good friend who's a tournament fisherman and he's caught lunker bass out of there. But since the gizzard shad emerged at Patoka, the bluegill, redear and even crappie fishing have detiorated tremendously.

I'm a panfisherman and I live about 60 miles from Patoka, and I seriously wouldn't go there if you offered to pick me up and pay for the bait. I'd have you drop me off at a number of spots before I'd go there.

[fishNnut]

Geo, the walleye stocking at Patoka is a result of the striper die off two years ago there. The guides found out that the big dead stripers were not bringing in any clients and lobbied the DNR to put the walleye in to replace them.

The walleye did grow +/- 8" the first year they were there. Can't wait to see the number of professional walleye guides that show up in about 3 or 4 years.

Now if the DRN would just put some musky in there, we could have a real fishery.

[fishassasin]

for the general fisherman i think patoka ***** .... MY OPINION. ive caught maybe 6 bass out of all the times ive been there and none of them made it to 12 inches. and gills are small .. i catch bigger gills in the ohio river heck even the bass i catch have all been bigger than patako ones i have caught. i guess im not a professional guide that fishes day in night in and out on that lake. as for shad ... birds can catch fish from other surrounding ponds that are close by and feed on these fish at neighboring waters and the eggs can get into the system and hatch .. bet you never thought of that ... not saying it happened to patoka. but how would it happen to a 1 acre lake that is 2 miles from the nearest water with those fish in it.

[SteveM4A1]

for the general fisherman i think patoka ***** .... MY OPINION. ive caught maybe 6 bass out of all the times ive been there and none of them made it to 12 inches. and gills are small .. i catch bigger gills in the ohio river heck even the bass i catch have all been bigger than patako ones i have caught. i guess im not a professional guide that fishes day in night in and out on that lake. as for shad ... birds can catch fish from other surrounding ponds that are close by and feed on these fish at neighboring waters and the eggs can get into the system and hatch .. bet you never thought of that ... not saying it happened to patoka. but how would it happen to a 1 acre lake that is 2 miles from the nearest water with those fish in it.

patoka is a good bass fishery.