U.S. faces "Americanization" of terror threat

[RoadToad]

I don't know what you mean by "qualifiers." What I said to you before was that the passages from the Koran that are usually cited when people speak of this "convert or kill" notion are generally pulled out of context, and mis-interpreted, whether it be by non-Muslims criticizing Islam, or Muslims themselves seeking to justify terrorism. I said that because of my belief that it's not Islam that makes people terrorists, it's politics. Then I asked you where in the Koran it says that all non-Muslims must be converted or killed, to which you replied that you'd never had any interest in reading it. Now that you've remembered having a translation of the Koran, in its entirety, would you care to share with us what passages you're referring to?

[Grumpy]

Roadtoad. I was not blessed the the photographic memery that my older brother had. I don't even remember which side won in War and Peace; who slept with Anna Karanina; what it was the Sherlock found elementary; where the Brave New World came from; how deep Twenty-Thousand Leagues was; what that Germen fellow's struggle was; who committed the Murders in the Rue Morgue; who wore the Mask of the Red Death; what year 1984 was; who died at the Alamo; or much less a specific passage in a book I read somewhere around 1960.

From the way the Muslims have repeatedly tried conquest of non-Muslim areas, I do know that Mohammed was not referring only to those who invaded their realm but to all non-believers and I believe that it is you that is taking things out of context not most of the rest of the literary world. And in referecne to APB's previous question, I believe that Christianity tried to convert non-believers by spreading the "word of God" and not with a sword.

You can apologize for them all you want but you will never convince me that Islam is a "peaceful religion". And that is my last word on it.

Grumpy

[jcb]

Roadtoad, no matter how many times you try to push this discussion towards facts you're going to be rebuffed with nebulous, sweeping generalizations. Unless the whole thing is a "verbal trap", in which case all bets are off.

[RoadToad]

Roadtoad. I was not blessed the the photographic memery that my older brother had. I don't even remember which side won in War and Peace; who slept with Anna Karanina; what it was the Sherlock found elementary; where the Brave New World came from; how deep Twenty-Thousand Leagues was; what that Germen fellow's struggle was; who committed the Murders in the Rue Morgue; who wore the Mask of the Red Death; what year 1984 was; who died at the Alamo; or much less a specific passage in a book I read somewhere around 1960.

From the way the Muslims have repeatedly tried conquest of non-Muslim areas, I do know that Mohammed was not referring only to those who invaded their realm but to all non-believers and I believe that it is you that is taking things out of context not most of the rest of the literary world. And in referecne to APB's previous question, I believe that Christianity tried to convert non-believers by spreading the "word of God" and not with a sword.

You can apologize for them all you want but you will never convince me that Islam is a "peaceful religion". And that is my last word on it.

Grumpy

I hope that truly IS your last word on it, and that you'll stop calling me out by name, and mis-labeling me a "Muslim apologist." My last word on the subject is that you seem to lack not only a "photographic" memory, but much memory at all of your reading of the Koran, or you wouldn't keep posting the same old falsehoods about its content, which "most of the rest of the literary world" recognize to be untrue. If you'll leave me out of your posts, we can agree to disagree. But if you continue to put words in my mouth, I'll continue to reply.

You're right, JCB.

[Chubminnow]

I have an acquaintance who's studying to be a preacher....this fella is in his early 30's...at any rate right now he's studying Honor and Shame in the Muslim Culture. According to him, we, in the west, are motivated more by guilt and/or freedom of guilt while those in the east (Muslims) are motivated more by shame and/or freedom of shame. He says the two aren't similar at all, and he goes on to say there are actually great distinctions between the two. Guilt (the Western World) is motivated by law while shame (the Eastern World) is motivated by integrity. Shame and/or Honor is generally applied to something greater than the individual - such as a family or clan. Doing wrong dishonors the clan and many times only death can repeal that. Sin doesn't affect a shamed culture like it does us here in the west. Law means little to those in the east, but Christ's death on the cross is seen as an act restoring honor to the Father - only Jesus didn't do the dishonoring, we did. Muslims can understand the shame of Christ on the cross before they can understand love on the cross.

It seems kind of deep to me, but what do you all think about this? Anyone got any insight into any of this?

[jcb]

I would agree that the Eastern societies place a much higher emphasis on shame, especially the kind of family shame you mention. The disintegration of the family in the West took care of that.

Also agree about us being motivated greatly by guilt.

Very interesting topic.

[bassin_bug]

I have an acquaintance who's studying to be a preacher....this fella is in his early 30's...at any rate right now he's studying Honor and Shame in the Muslim Culture. According to him, we, in the west, are motivated more by guilt and/or freedom of guilt while those in the east (Muslims) are motivated more by shame and/or freedom of shame. He says the two aren't similar at all, and he goes on to say there are actually great distinctions between the two. Guilt (the Western World) is motivated by law while shame (the Eastern World) is motivated by integrity. Shame and/or Honor is generally applied to something greater than the individual - such as a family or clan. Doing wrong dishonors the clan and many times only death can repeal that. Sin doesn't affect a shamed culture like it does us here in the west. Law means little to those in the east, but Christ's death on the cross is seen as an act restoring honor to the Father - only Jesus didn't do the dishonoring, we did. Muslims can understand the shame of Christ on the cross before they can understand love on the cross.

It seems kind of deep to me, but what do you all think about this? Anyone got any insight into any of this?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Christ's death on the cross is seen as an act RESTORING HONOR to the Father."
WRONG! John 3:16 --"For God so loved the world that HE GAVE his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Jesus did not die on the cross to restore honor to the Father; God is sinless therefore he never sinned and lost His honor. Jesus died on the cross to redeem humanity from their sins. God is not human, He is Spirit.

If your acquaintance is studying "Honor and Shame" in the Muslim culture, is he studying to be an Imam or taking a fake course online? That course is not taught in any reputable Christian Bible College that I have ever heard of unless it has recently been added (it would serve no useful purpose). ONLY the Bible is taught in Bible College. If you don't believe me, check it out at Southeastern Bible College, Lakeland, FL which is one of the most reputable that I know of. There is a course explaining the difference between the Jewish and the Christian beliefs which is a part of "Grace vs Law."

If you would like to know some of the things The Bible has to say about shame read this:
http://www.acts17-11.com/shame.html

My late brother held a Doctorate of Divinity degree in Theology from Southeastern Bible College. I will look through his books and study material and see if I can find anything relative to what you were told. If I do, I will send you an e-mail.

[RoadToad]

Thanks for sharing that, Chub. That's a very interesting perspective on why the two religions tell much the same story, but in different ways. I can't say I have any insight into it, but I find it very thought-provoking.

[Chubminnow]

I hesitated to bring religeon into the subject matter....looks like I opened a can of worms.

I can read the bible and re-read it...and others can read it how ever many times they want to as well...all told, for every time some verses are read there can be that many different ways of interpreting what was read. All depends on who's reading it and what their take on it is. This is only my opinion.

[jcb]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If your acquaintance is studying "Honor and Shame" in the Muslim culture, is he studying to be an Imam or taking a fake course online? That course is not taught in any reputable Christian Bible College that I have ever heard of unless it has recently been added (it would serve no useful purpose).

If one were going to proselytize Muslims, wouldn't it help to know what made them think the way they do?

[Chubminnow]

If your acquaintance is studying "Honor and Shame" in the Muslim culture, is he studying to be an Imam or taking a fake course online? That course is not taught in any reputable Christian Bible College that I have ever heard of unless it has recently been added (it would serve no useful purpose). ONLY the Bible is taught in Bible College. If you don't believe me, check it out at Southeastern Bible College, Lakeland, FL which is one of the

Geesh Bugs...ummm, yea sure...I have a friend taking a fake course online...Actually he's taking courses at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary...they're here in Louisville, been around for about 150 years. For all I know the school itself may not be offering the course...for all I know this might be something he decided to dive into on his own free will and accord OUTSIDE of his regular schooling, maybe because of all this Muslim stuff in the news lately, who knows? At any rate...here's a link to check out the school he's taking courses at if you're interested.

http://www.sbts.edu/

[RoadToad]

Southeastern doesn't offer Doctoral Degrees of any kind:
http://www.seuniversity.edu/religion/

On the other hand, SBTS, like most other theological seminaries on the planet, does offer post-graduate divinity degrees, with a specialty in Islamic studies:
http://www.swbts.edu/catalog/page.cfm?id=47&open=4_area

Like JCB said, they recognize that anybody wishing to proselytize Muslims will need to know a little about Islam.