I love it........you can BEAT your wife and kids as long as you leave no MARKS

[DJD]

I find it amusing how we all, including myself, can be so different in raising our kids yet they all seem to be ok. That's gotta speak louder then all the opinions on this thread. The fact that I spank doesn't mean I beat. The fact that I was spanked doesn't mean that's what has caused me to spank.
The fact that I was spanked doesn't mean anything to me except as I look back I deserved it and it kept me from doing alot of bad things the second time, third time or forth time.

[psprowler]

I hope the following is the answer that you are looking for. There has been little data collected on spanking vs alternatives to spanking. My personal opinion is that people are hesitant to provide information because normal discipline is now being reported as abuse by angry children.

In the 1940's and 1950's Dr. Benjamin Spock convinced the nation that spanking children was not a good way to discipline them. He taught that bad behavior is really not your child's fault and that spanking teaches children to be violent through the use of violence (i.e. by the violence of spanking them.) He did not differentiate between spanking and explosive attacks of rage.

The reason I have been hesitant to even respond to your comments concerning me giving a definite answer is because one group of children involved in the studies of corporal punishment were autistic children. With apologies to them and their families I hereby submit the few scant statistics that I know of that have been released.

In a systematic review of peer-reviewed professional articles on spanking, the National Institute for Healthcare Research (NIHR, 2111 Wilson Blvd. Suite 1130, Arlington, VA 22201, ICISH) found that of 132 articles published in the 1980's, only 24 were actual quantitative studies, including a specified method, data or results. The rest were reviews or commentary. In other words, lots of opinion, little science.

Further, of the actual experimental studies, 90% lumped milder forms of spanking together with severe forms of physical abuse. Thus the results were automatically prejudiced. It is like saying house-cats and lions kill many people each year throughout the world.

The professional organizations taking a policy position on the topic, NIHR found, had not published any studies in their journals over the past decade, so that their decisions were evidently formed without the benefit of data. It then becomes a matter of science by peer pressure of majority vote.

On the contrary, for the few studies actually looking at the question, there was data supporting corporal punishment. R.E. Larzelere, in the Journal of Psychology & Theology Volume 21, Number 2, identified three contexts where spanking showed benefit: 1) disciplining autistic children. 2) employing mild spanking as a back-up for children ages 2 to 6. 3) coupling reasoning with a spanking to better reduce misbehavior in toddlers.

The kind of spanking being looked at was controlled and purposeful, not an angry outburst. The autistic children were in an intensive program. Aggressive or non-compliant behavior was dealt with by a sharp "no!" and occasional slap on the thigh. The children in this treatment group were able to mainstream 47% of the time compared with only 2% of those using alternative methods without corporal punishment.

A study of Pediatricians indicated that 70% believe spanking is acceptable in certain circumstances (Pediatric Management September 1993.) A phone survey in two Minnesota Counties by Murray Straus of the University of New Hampshire, indicated that 90% of parents practiced spanking, 75% of parents of toddlers in the past year.

I believe this data is flawed and is slanted in favor of corporal punishment because it didn't offer data that demonstrates the benefits where alternatives to spanking were used.

My final thoughts on this are that a parent should try other methods to correct bad behavior and should use spanking only as a last resort. If the parent has been negligent and allowed the bad behavior to continue until it causes them to go into a rage, don't lift a hand or an object and strike your child. Chances are good that it will turn into explosive rage and child abuse.

I was a victim of child abuse and was almost killed on one occasion when I was struck in the back and my kidney was ruptured. When I became an adult, I made myself a promise of NEVER AGAIN and that I would do my best to prevent others from suffering in the name of discipline. When I was 18 years old, my best friend's father started beating her with a belt over something she was not responsible for. He was in a rage and the more he beat her the madder he became. I stepped in between them, jerked his hand off her arm and said, "Don't hit her another time; lay the rest of her wounds on my back." He dropped the belt to the floor and walked out of the room.

So to answer your question, "Can we spank our kids or not?" If you are a person who is slow to anger and able to control your temper, my answer is "yes, but only as a last resort; keep in mind that it is a spanking to correct bad behavior and not a beating. No angry reflex slaps or punches...EVER. You should not spank your kids if you are a hot tempered person who cannot control his rage and uses beating as a means of venting your anger." I had one parent who spanked and one who beat me until the blood ran out. I have spanked my own child but ended up crying more than she did.

Have a great weekend. I am packing up and flying south for about a month.

I was being facetious - nobody will tell me whether or not I can spank my kids.

Still waiting to see that clinical psychology degree. You can't insinuate that you have one and not expect to get called out on it.

[offdtop]

I've read every post an at times I laughed and at times I gasped, I was spanked at the drop of a hat - I was smacked for looking at my mom wrong. But like the old days mom took what she could (she had 4 boys) and when the cup run over she told dad. Now dad was the end all and if he was brought in on the issue you can bet "grab your ankles" was said thus we never wanted to get to that point.

There weren't any points of view on the topic you didn't talk your way out of the spanking and you took what you earned or reaped what you you had sewn. And you know I've had a few doozy butt whoopins but to hear the constant yelling and name calling is more of what I remember than anything. I had the fear of God instilled in me if I messed up -I was in trouble and that meant something! gaurantee it kept me out of more trouble than a time out would have IMHO. But i know kids who are very well adjusted (mine included) because a few times in their lives they recieved corpral punishment along with other forms of dicipline ie. grounding, extra chores etc..

As was mentioned earlier my son has said "Yes sir/maam" "Thank you and please" all his life and yet I was chastized for "being a drill Sgt." for teaching him to do so - yet now my son is 21 and is one of the most well mannered young men any parent has met. He's had his rear end busted a handfull of times - like when he set the woods on fire - that deserved a whoopin IMO. So to me when you got spanked it was the end all of dicipline, it was the final straw and you knew you had it coming. I had and my child has had positive reinforcement - "I'm positive if I screw up bad enough I'm gonna get spanked", and the spare the rod to spoil the child is dead on as long as it is used as a means of controlled dicipline not a way to relieve anger in ones self of the situation.

[GeoFisher]

OffDTop.......I read your entire post, and the MOST ABSOLUTE perfect thing you said was the final sentence.........

the spare the rod to spoil the child is dead on as long as it is used as a means of controlled dicipline not a way to relieve anger in ones self of the situation.

I think way too many times discipline is used as a way to make "mommy" or "daddy" feel better.

Those are the cases when it turns in to abuse.

I've NEVER, EVER spanked either of my kids out of anger. I have used corporal punishment when necessary, and my kids are better off for it. AND I've been told more than once that my kids are so "well behaved". A lot of that is due to the way we handled them in public situations.

Later,

Geo

[bassin_bug]

I was being facetious - nobody will tell me whether or not I can spank my kids.

Still waiting to see that clinical psychology degree. You can't insinuate that you have one and not expect to get called out on it.

I don't give a hoot what you want to see; you have NO legal right to be asking for any of my personal information. I don't have to prove anything to you because you are NOTHING to me. I DON'T GIVE IN TO BULLIES, and I don't post my personal information online. How do I know that you won't next be asking for my credit card information, bank account numbers, PIN, and other personal information? ID theft is a major problem in this country and I don't trust strangers online. I gave you my opinion on spanking and that is ALL you get.

Repeat after me: "I have just been IGNORED."

[apb]

I don't give a hoot what you want to see; you have NO legal right to be asking for any of my personal information. I don't have to prove anything to you because you are NOTHING to me. I DON'T GIVE IN TO BULLIES, and I don't post my personal information online. How do I know that you won't next be asking for my credit card information, bank account numbers, PIN, and other personal information? ID theft is a major problem in this country and I don't trust strangers online. I gave you my opinion on spanking and that is ALL you get.

Repeat after me: "I have just been IGNORED."

No offense Bass Bug, but you were the one who claimed the clinical physiology degree. The request for some clarification of this was no more than someone asking for a link to back up a ?fact? that they had presented in support of an argument. I?m not sure why you would take offense to this. There was no request for any personal information such as credit card info, address, etc. Ignore people as you like, but it really adds nothing to your credibility when you continue to ignore people who may be do not see eye to eye with you. Just a thought.

Andrew

[bassin_bug]

No offense Bass Bug, but you were the one who claimed the clinical physiology degree. The request for some clarification of this was no more than someone asking for a link to back up a ?fact? that they had presented in support of an argument. I?m not sure why you would take offense to this. There was no request for any personal information such as credit card info, address, etc. Ignore people as you like, but it really adds nothing to your credibility when you continue to ignore people who may be do not see eye to eye with you. Just a thought.

Andrew

So you want to talk about MY credibility? Aren't you supposed to be a moderator? If you are then what are you doing perpetuating an issue that I elected to stop based on what I considered a perfectly valid reason. I believe you picked up my answer to run with it either because of, or on behalf of, the guy I placed on my ignore list. I didn't say 'whatshisname' requested any personal information such as credit card info, address, etc. That was YOU twisting my words and you know full well what a twist becomes. I only asked him how did I know that he wouldn't NEXT be asking for that information. I don't submit to interrogation unless someone shows me a BIG badge and a much bigger reason.

Grumpy's words of wisdom to me last year were, "You should put each other on your IGNORE LIST or just plain ignore each other but do something to stop this bantering." (11-18-09). I'm just following his advice, so if you don't like it, take it up with him.

Clinical 'physiology' degree?!!! That must be YOURS, I wouldn't own anything like that. Oh, no, Masser dat ain't mine.

I'm done with this thread.

[Devils Horse]

pretty dang funny right there!

Thanks Don, bet that same thing's been said about both of us more than once.

BTW, I have an 8 year old daughter, and I've never spanked her in her life. She's a great kid..straight A's...well behaved...a source of great joy for me and her mother. (All the things I never was.)

On the other hand I have 2 adult sons, who growing up were generally only happy when they were either destroying something or trying to kill something. I did have to get them a few times, but you could count them on one hand.

I've always found it more difficult not laugh than whether to administer a spanking.

Like when I caught my sons carrying the neighbor lady's beloved cat around in my dip net. Or when my youngest son yelled out "He eats like pig!" about a fellow patron in a crowded restaurant. Or when they sneaked into my paintball rig and used the trees, the house, my truck, my boat, each other, and the neighbor kids for target practice. Or when they broke the TV wrestling.

I don't have anything against spanking, it is the parents' choice. But for me personally there are very very few things worth hitting any of my kids over.

[Col Forbin]

I don't have anything against spanking, it is the parents' choice. But for me personally there are very very few things worth hitting any of my kids over.

Kind of sums up my feelings as well.

[pontooner]

I got my share of spankings at home and got a few paddlings at school.

Now if given the choice of a paddling or writing a 5-10 page paper, missing recess,.......... I would have taken the paddlins everyday of the week and twice on Fridays.

Just sayin.


Also SteveM4A1 didn't say you lost IQ points with every spanking you got like some here are acting like, he just said that the study showed they had lower IQ's. Not that spanked kids were dumb, retarted............ just lower IQ's. It could be by just a point or few points.

Did anyone here look into these studies and see if they were legit before bashing the guy?

Word to the wise SteveM4A1, if you want to get a point across here you need to post links with facts and then you'll still probably have a battle on your hands with some here.

[apb]

[quote bassin bug] So you want to talk about MY credibility? Aren't you supposed to be a moderator? If you are then what are you doing perpetuating an issue that I elected to stop based on what I considered a perfectly valid reason. I believe you picked up my answer to run with it either because of, or on behalf of, the guy I placed on my ignore list. I didn't say 'whatshisname' requested any personal information such as credit card info, address, etc. That was YOU twisting my words and you know full well what a twist becomes. I only asked him how did I know that he wouldn't NEXT be asking for that information. I don't submit to interrogation unless someone shows me a BIG badge and a much bigger reason.

Grumpy's words of wisdom to me last year were, "You should put each other on your IGNORE LIST or just plain ignore each other but do something to stop this bantering." (11-18-09). I'm just following his advice, so if you don't like it, take it up with him.

Clinical 'physiology' degree?!!! That must be YOURS, I wouldn't own anything like that. Oh, no, Masser dat ain't mine.

I'm done with this thread. [/quote]

When you question someone else's credibility with a comment like this:

[quote bassin bug] And your qualifications are.......?
Which of us holds a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology and is licensed to practice in two states? [/quote]

I have no problem with someone asking you to back that up. Same as if I had posted some figures and said they came from a paper I read recently. I would have no problem with someone asking for a link to that paper. How else can they assess my position? That was my point, period. Part of having a discussion is learning other people's opinions and how they formed them. Backing up one's position goes a long way into doing that.

My position as a moderator is to let folks know when they are going over the line with a response. I have seen several cases where you have gone off on a rant and/or degraded someone for questioning you. To me, that is going over the line, and has the potential to derail a thread into a flame war. Part of my duty as a moderator is to try to nip something like that in the bud before it spirals downward. If you have a problem with how I moderate this forum, Peter's email address is at the top of the boards. Feel free to email him or hit the alert button and let another moderator assess my comments. If any of them feels that I have over stepped by role as moderator, I will be happy to offer an appology and back down. In the mean time I would suggest dropping the attitude.

Yeah, "clinical psychology", sorry, my spelling was waaaay off! I have no idea what you are trying to say with the rest of that paragraph. Want to clarify it for me?

Andrew

[Chubminnow]

I like you Gills, I would love to meet you sometime. You my Dear make alot of sense and I can totally relate to your way of thinking.

Islam can kiss my rear, sorry that's how I feel folks!

I agree withy ou Mark...ol' Gills is defintely an intelligent soul on several topics it seems..which is kind of why I tend to stay away from her on this board...she'll kick my booty! lol...

Who's this new guys saying a swat on the childs read does more harm than good?