Mitch Daniels takes on LABOR

[DJD]

DJD ever work high iron? would you trust just anyone operating a tower crane? Would you let a new guy plan and build a 20 story elevator shaft? Some unions have apprentace programs a worker must pass to be a certified journey man. I saw new houses being built in birmingham, that 5 yrs later were almost condemed, BillyBob construction, left sewer lines loosly connected, Atlanta subdivision, used the cheap schedule plactic pipe for sewage, 4 yra later the whole subdivision was socked with the cost of replacing it, BiilBob construction, and his crew Juan, Pedro, hesus, all gone. Hate unions, what is the AMA, The bar association? Get a bunch of yahoos putting up a 5 story wall, and not checking plumb lines, but hey they are only making 5 bucks an hour. When I got out of the army, worked with american bridge, but it was almost seasonal work, building missle silos out west, no yahoos needed to apply.you talk about constructiion, do you hire cheap or competent contractors?Good contractors have jourymen,who know and take pride in their work.I worked iron one year, and frankly it scared the s--t out of me, so went into industry, chemicals to be exact, and retired as a hydrogen plant tech.Not a union job then.

No Sir I have not worked high iron...they can have it! That takes taters the size of uhhh taters!
We work with Union contractors day in and day out and I'm speaking about Electrical and Mechanical Unions that I see in my line of work. Naturally, the folks I work with are awesome and my opinion has nothing to do with their character or personal beliefs.

I do get to hear the "Union" side of the arguments of why they can't seem to compete unless they cut their prices to the bone. They are bound to pay their guys a certain rate which is why that "Prevailing Wage" law went into effect. The hopes were that if we paid our guys that high wage mandated by area or county then we would all be on level playing ground. What noone considered is that non union owners (who are directly responsible for the mans pay and makes decisions daily on how to keep the doors open) worked out doing more work without having 10 journeymen on each job so they could pay a supervisor his proper rate and pay the non-licensed guys they prevailing wages. When they get licensed and earn their way then it's their turn to get paid for their committment to their trade.

The jobs the union contractors get are usually very large (Hospitals, UK, Toyota) that demand a huge amount of labor in a short amount of time. Smaller non union companies can't compete with that and by smaller I'm even talking 50-70 men not being enough. The non union folks still have apprentice programs to become licensed journymen or master electricians and have their continuing education classes as required by KECA/codes. So the quality is the same with good and bad in each.

In the trade I'm in and the trades I deal with there are little to no illegals since the education required usually weeds them out especially with background checks/security clearances/drug tests for specific gubment jobs. I know for sure that trades that only require a strong back and ability to work in the trenches will attract the lower educated or hard on their luck folks. Thats just a fact of life and we need people in all pay grades. Heck most of us started the same way and decided to better educate ourselves or our parents pushed us.

I guess what I am living proof of is that hard work and not being in a union and working for small companies that support 20 or more employees pays the bills and if your good at what you do a person can do very well. No union involved at all. The private sector is where it's at in my eyes. I don't have the security blanket that unions do. My buddy who works at UPS is a proud union member. Great for him and he was around when UPS went on strike in the 90's (i think) and it was rough. He made enemies with friends who crossed the picket lines because they had to work to support their families and it tore alot of people apart. I just disagree with that mentailty. Isn't getting paid 50-100K a year driving package trucks and tractor trailers enough? What skill do they have? Walk fast? Healthy backs? Organizational skills? I just don't see it ......

[billm_usa1]

Mitch Daniels takes on LABOR ?
I'm not sure where you got this or why you have attributed every one of these personally to Mitch Daniels beliefs. Everything listed are items proposed by the different legislative members. Daniels is on record that we have higher priorities to address during this spring's legislative session.

The issue of township government is really high on exactly what a township is supposed to provide vs the cities and counties. Poor relief was the major responsibility of the township but many have been turned into family businesses.

[dac244]

No Sir I have not worked high iron...they can have it! That takes taters the size of uhhh taters!
We work with Union contractors day in and day out and I'm speaking about Electrical and Mechanical Unions that I see in my line of work. Naturally, the folks I work with are awesome and my opinion has nothing to do with their character or personal beliefs.

I do get to hear the "Union" side of the arguments of why they can't seem to compete unless they cut their prices to the bone. They are bound to pay their guys a certain rate which is why that "Prevailing Wage" law went into effect. The hopes were that if we paid our guys that high wage mandated by area or county then we would all be on level playing ground. What noone considered is that non union owners (who are directly responsible for the mans pay and makes decisions daily on how to keep the doors open) worked out doing more work without having 10 journeymen on each job so they could pay a supervisor his proper rate and pay the non-licensed guys they prevailing wages. When they get licensed and earn their way then it's their turn to get paid for their committment to their trade.

The jobs the union contractors get are usually very large (Hospitals, UK, Toyota) that demand a huge amount of labor in a short amount of time. Smaller non union companies can't compete with that and by smaller I'm even talking 50-70 men not being enough. The non union folks still have apprentice programs to become licensed journymen or master electricians and have their continuing education classes as required by KECA/codes. So the quality is the same with good and bad in each.

In the trade I'm in and the trades I deal with there are little to no illegals since the education required usually weeds them out especially with background checks/security clearances/drug tests for specific gubment jobs. I know for sure that trades that only require a strong back and ability to work in the trenches will attract the lower educated or hard on their luck folks. Thats just a fact of life and we need people in all pay grades. Heck most of us started the same way and decided to better educate ourselves or our parents pushed us.

I guess what I am living proof of is that hard work and not being in a union and working for small companies that support 20 or more employees pays the bills and if your good at what you do a person can do very well. No union involved at all. The private sector is where it's at in my eyes. I don't have the security blanket that unions do. My buddy who works at UPS is a proud union member. Great for him and he was around when UPS went on strike in the 90's (i think) and it was rough. He made enemies with friends who crossed the picket lines because they had to work to support their families and it tore alot of people apart. I just disagree with that mentailty. Isn't getting paid 50-100K a year driving package trucks and tractor trailers enough? What skill do they have? Walk fast? Healthy backs? Organizational skills? I just don't see it ......

You might want to do your research on prevailing wage It wasn't started by or for unions.

[Chubminnow]

You might want to do your research on prevailing wage It wasn't started by or for unions.

Great! So please enlighten us as to who started prevailing wage and why. Oh c'mon, you threw it out here, surely you know.

[dac244]

Great! So please enlighten us as to who started prevailing wage and why. Oh c'mon, you threw it out here, surely you know.

You tell me you seem like you got all the answers.

[GeoFisher]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_wage

they still **** BUTT..........Prevailing wages should be established by WHAT the INDUSTRY is willing to pay........NOT some ******** gubment pencil pusher.

[DJD]

You might want to do your research on prevailing wage It wasn't started by or for unions.

Everything I have read on this mentions Unions. They are for it and think it's a great idea. That alone tells you everything you need to know.

The Union folks I deal with told me that when Pattoon signed that Bill into Law in 1997 it was so they could be more competitive. Patton publicly supported "collective wage bargaining" during his campaign and had the backing of Labor Unions.....and wouldn't you know he was elected. Again more info that supports him doing payback to the folks who got him elected. Just google him and prevailing wage laws and read it you will find what I found.

If your looking for a statement from the Unions that they sent money to Patton to push or renew this Bill you prolly won't find it but backing a candidate means just that.....Thats how it works.

Most laws are brought upon us by a perceived need or personal agenda. Someone of influence has to back that Bill and it's usually tied to some group with money. Many laws are out there that are not enforced and an original prevailing wage law was passed for Ky in 1940. I don't know or care what it said but as I stated Patton passed his version in 1997. I was bidding construction work at that time(still am) and it was the rage of the Union boys. We heard all kinds of stuff on it's about time the non-union contractors have to bid the same dollars as them so regardless of what is written on this topic......I lived it.

If you know any different I welcome the info. I have alot more data if you like that supports my claims. Info from other states like Michigan tells the same story. Unions are behind this.

I did what you asked so now it's your turn....or you just wanted me to read more about a subject that makes me sick. Which one is it??

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/lrcpubs/RR304.pdf

https://www.mackinac.org/8909

[artcarney_agr]

It's getting ugly with shenanigans abroad......check out this article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41755772...ics/?GT1=43001

Also, click your vote in this pole and take a good look at the current results...I find it very interesting:
http://politics.newsvine.com/_questi...on-wis-impasse

[Chubminnow]

That's good stuff you posted Don...I recommend everyone take a look at what Don posted and read it....assuming everyone here knows how to read...(that's a joke...sort of)

At any rate...I did something new today fella's. I know it didn't feel right, and I know coming from me it didn't sound right. But after taking in all of the information (and garbage) provided on this thread, I apologized to two of my co-workers for giving them so much grief about buying a foriegn made, non-union assembled car. I now finally understand WHY they chose foreign (non-union) over domestic (union). This is what the Union guys comments have done for me, made me see the TRUE light! Now I've got a couple of neighbors at home I need to apologize to also.

One other thing...as far as prevailing wages on construction projects are concerned...#1, Prevailing Wage DOES make contruction projects cost more, and #2, the buck doesn't stop at the higher paid wages. After the wages are paid there's literally a ton of paper work that must be filled out that must VERIFY contractors are paying their workers the wage rates stated. Paper work = more dollars. The list goes on and on and on.

Next time I hear the Union man complaining as a consumer about the price of parking, admission or anything else he can cry me a river as far as I'm concerned....cause it ain't gonna spoil my pinto beans either way.

[dac244]

[QUOTE=DJD;443098]Everything I have read on this mentions Unions. They are for it and think it's a great idea. That alone tells you everything you need to know.

The Union folks I deal with told me that when Pattoon signed that Bill into Law in 1997 it was so they could be more competitive. Patton publicly supported "collective wage bargaining" during his campaign and had the backing of Labor Unions.....and wouldn't you know he was elected. Again more info that supports him doing payback to the folks who got him elected. Just google him and prevailing wage laws and read it you will find what I found.

If your looking for a statement from the Unions that they sent money to Patton to push or renew this Bill you prolly won't find it but backing a candidate means just that.....Thats how it works.

Most laws are brought upon us by a perceived need or personal agenda. Someone of influence has to back that Bill and it's usually tied to some group with money. Many laws are out there that are not enforced and an original prevailing wage law was passed for Ky in 1940. I don't know or care what it said but as I stated Patton passed his version in 1997. I was bidding construction work at that time(still am) and it was the rage of the Union boys. We heard all kinds of stuff on it's about time the non-union contractors have to bid the same dollars as them so regardless of what is written on this topic......I lived it.

If you know any different I welcome the info. I have alot more data if you like that supports my claims. Info from other states like Michigan tells the same story. Unions are behind this.

I did what you asked so now it's your turn....or you just wanted me to read more about a subject that makes me sick. Which one is it??

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/lrcpubs/RR304.pdf

https://www.mackinac.org/8909[/QUOTE

Why don't you ask your non union buddys that work in the building trades if they would like to see PW gone? I use to get a kick how they would get all worked up cause they was going to go work on a prevailing wage job. Look I could care less if you like unions or not but for people to blame the proplems of the economy all on the unions is total BS. I worked in the building trades for 26 years and to be honest was never on that many prevailing wage jobs. But union or not if the little guy can get a bigger slice of the pie every now and again why not.

[DJD]

[QUOTE=dac244;443123]

Everything I have read on this mentions Unions. They are for it and think it's a great idea. That alone tells you everything you need to know.

The Union folks I deal with told me that when Pattoon signed that Bill into Law in 1997 it was so they could be more competitive. Patton publicly supported "collective wage bargaining" during his campaign and had the backing of Labor Unions.....and wouldn't you know he was elected. Again more info that supports him doing payback to the folks who got him elected. Just google him and prevailing wage laws and read it you will find what I found.

If your looking for a statement from the Unions that they sent money to Patton to push or renew this Bill you prolly won't find it but backing a candidate means just that.....Thats how it works.

Most laws are brought upon us by a perceived need or personal agenda. Someone of influence has to back that Bill and it's usually tied to some group with money. Many laws are out there that are not enforced and an original prevailing wage law was passed for Ky in 1940. I don't know or care what it said but as I stated Patton passed his version in 1997. I was bidding construction work at that time(still am) and it was the rage of the Union boys. We heard all kinds of stuff on it's about time the non-union contractors have to bid the same dollars as them so regardless of what is written on this topic......I lived it.

If you know any different I welcome the info. I have alot more data if you like that supports my claims. Info from other states like Michigan tells the same story. Unions are behind this.

I did what you asked so now it's your turn....or you just wanted me to read more about a subject that makes me sick. Which one is it??

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/lrcpubs/RR304.pdf

https://www.mackinac.org/8909[/QUOTE

Why don't you ask your non union buddys that work in the building trades if they would like to see PW gone? I use to get a kick how they would get all worked up cause they was going to go work on a prevailing wage job. Look I could care less if you like unions or not but for people to blame the proplems of the economy all on the unions is total BS. I worked in the building trades for 26 years and to be honest was never on that many prevailing wage jobs. But union or not if the little guy can get a bigger slice of the pie every now and again why not.

I was just responding to your question man......No way will a Pro Union guy (not saying you) agree with my opinion of unions being outdated, greedy and for the most part alot like socialist gubment....JMO look at the violence they spew when you talk about them feeling the pinch that others have in this economy. What makes them better than me? Look at the amount of bailout money they received and did nothing constructive with. I thought teachers were gonna get hired and all kinds of crap with the millions that Wisconson received. Where is that money? Millions??

To answer your other question....If I ask a man in the field if he likes the PW when it's more than his base pay the answer is YES!!! Thats human nature. If I ask folks in the office who do not work on-site at PW jobs since they are management they say it SUKKS. Here is why...to work in the office you usually have shown some ability to lead, manage or just plain been there long enough. Now you get a project awarded to your company and you have to pay a guy the PW just because he fits a "classification" like is he wearing tools or not. That should not be what decides if a guy gets paid $22 an hour usual pay and now $35 an hour. It should be performance, ability and is he making you money. This weeds out slackers and promotes competency. Giving money promotes lazy, entitlement attitudes. Look at our welfare system....prime example.

Does the guy in the field care where the money came from? Prolly not but he should. When you give money to someone it means you have taken it from someone else. That means taxes. So instead of making unions play with common sense law makers will tax folks more or get federal bailouts (taxes) so we can pay the builders more to do the same job as before (usually worse now) just because unions felt it was unfair that they pay their members waaaay to much and can't compete in the construction bid market. Their thinking is greed. They can't win by competing so they pad the pockets of politicians to try and level the playing field.

The only reason that mans pay jumped that high is the Unions...it wasn't that he just became better at his job and in fact jobs are harder to complete now more than ever. Guys don't want to work as hard because the longer the job lasts the more he gets are $35 an hour rate. See the problem?? Giving money to someone for the sake of giving money based on a "classification" is wrong and thats what Unions do. Thats what the gubment does in many areas as well.

Instead of saying you folks who have done well by going to school, working hard, paying your dues, dealing with the headaches and playing by the book can enjoy the fruits of your labor they would rather say nope you have too much so give more to the folks who chose not too do it your way. Why not reverse that and say those of you who didn't do enough need to start and sleep in the bed you made. Stop whining and get your arse out there! All men are equal right?? Why not let them be equal by lifting everyone up instead of lowering everyone down?

Unions act as if the money is being generated by some magical money tree. It's not at all and the folks in Wisconson and other states are finding this out. Their federal taxes have been bailing these dang things out for years. They can organize into thugs and have had ties to organized crime for decades.

I hope they all get busted or damaged to the point of falling apart. They have broken the law as they see fit and are a huge waste of tax payer money.

Of course you see where our POTUS stands on Unions. He loves them since they supported him as he was a community organizer and loved the unions. Now we see again how he caters to his buddies.

[dac244]

[QUOTE=DJD;443137]

I was just responding to your question man......No way will a Pro Union guy (not saying you) agree with my opinion of unions being outdated, greedy and for the most part alot like socialist gubment....JMO look at the violence they spew when you talk about them feeling the pinch that others have in this economy. What makes them better than me? Look at the amount of bailout money they received and did nothing constructive with. I thought teachers were gonna get hired and all kinds of crap with the millions that Wisconson received. Where is that money? Millions??

To answer your other question....If I ask a man in the field if he likes the PW when it's more than his base pay the answer is YES!!! Thats human nature. If I ask folks in the office who do not work on-site at PW jobs since they are management they say it SUKKS. Here is why...to work in the office you usually have shown some ability to lead, manage or just plain been there long enough. Now you get a project awarded to your company and you have to pay a guy the PW just because he fits a "classification" like is he wearing tools or not. That should not be what decides if a guy gets paid $22 an hour usual pay and now $35 an hour. It should be performance, ability and is he making you money. This weeds out slackers and promotes competency. Giving money promotes lazy, entitlement attitudes. Look at our welfare system....prime example.

Does the guy in the field care where the money came from? Prolly not but he should. When you give money to someone it means you have taken it from someone else. That means taxes. So instead of making unions play with common sense law makers will tax folks more or get federal bailouts (taxes) so we can pay the builders more to do the same job as before (usually worse now) just because unions felt it was unfair that they pay their members waaaay to much and can't compete in the construction bid market. Their thinking is greed. They can't win by competing so they pad the pockets of politicians to try and level the playing field.

The only reason that mans pay jumped that high is the Unions...it wasn't that he just became better at his job and in fact jobs are harder to complete now more than ever. Guys don't want to work as hard because the longer the job lasts the more he gets are $35 an hour rate. See the problem?? Giving money to someone for the sake of giving money based on a "classification" is wrong and thats what Unions do. Thats what the gubment does in many areas as well.

Instead of saying you folks who have done well by going to school, working hard, paying your dues, dealing with the headaches and playing by the book can enjoy the fruits of your labor they would rather say nope you have too much so give more to the folks who chose not too do it your way. Why not reverse that and say those of you who didn't do enough need to start and sleep in the bed you made. Stop whining and get your arse out there! All men are equal right?? Why not let them be equal by lifting everyone up instead of lowering everyone down?

Unions act as if the money is being generated by some magical money tree. It's not at all and the folks in Wisconson and other states are finding this out. Their federal taxes have been bailing these dang things out for years. They can organize into thugs and have had ties to organized crime for decades.

I hope they all get busted or damaged to the point of falling apart. They have broken the law as they see fit and are a huge waste of tax payer money.

Of course you see where our POTUS stands on Unions. He loves them since they supported him as he was a community organizer and loved the unions. Now we see again how he caters to his buddies.

I can't believe I'am responding to this cause I hate debating on a board I guess I 'am old school I would much rather talk face to face. But like I said I spent 26 years in the building trades 24 with the same contractor and yes I made a decent wage. But I went through a 5 year apprenticeship then had to take a test to receive my license not to mention other certs I received through the years.I am speaking just about the building trades union here and I can tell you this if you are not any count you will not work they will and do police there own ranks cause if you don't work and the guy next to you don't work then your employer is not going to make money and in turn you will not have a job. I know this is hard for some to imagine but not all union people are lazy pos I know a bunch I will put up against the best in any trade.