Mitch Daniels takes on LABOR

[DJD]

[QUOTE=dac244;443123]

Everything I have read on this mentions Unions. They are for it and think it's a great idea. That alone tells you everything you need to know.

The Union folks I deal with told me that when Pattoon signed that Bill into Law in 1997 it was so they could be more competitive. Patton publicly supported "collective wage bargaining" during his campaign and had the backing of Labor Unions.....and wouldn't you know he was elected. Again more info that supports him doing payback to the folks who got him elected. Just google him and prevailing wage laws and read it you will find what I found.

If your looking for a statement from the Unions that they sent money to Patton to push or renew this Bill you prolly won't find it but backing a candidate means just that.....Thats how it works.

Most laws are brought upon us by a perceived need or personal agenda. Someone of influence has to back that Bill and it's usually tied to some group with money. Many laws are out there that are not enforced and an original prevailing wage law was passed for Ky in 1940. I don't know or care what it said but as I stated Patton passed his version in 1997. I was bidding construction work at that time(still am) and it was the rage of the Union boys. We heard all kinds of stuff on it's about time the non-union contractors have to bid the same dollars as them so regardless of what is written on this topic......I lived it.

If you know any different I welcome the info. I have alot more data if you like that supports my claims. Info from other states like Michigan tells the same story. Unions are behind this.

I did what you asked so now it's your turn....or you just wanted me to read more about a subject that makes me sick. Which one is it??

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/lrcpubs/RR304.pdf

https://www.mackinac.org/8909[/QUOTE

Why don't you ask your non union buddys that work in the building trades if they would like to see PW gone? I use to get a kick how they would get all worked up cause they was going to go work on a prevailing wage job. Look I could care less if you like unions or not but for people to blame the proplems of the economy all on the unions is total BS. I worked in the building trades for 26 years and to be honest was never on that many prevailing wage jobs. But union or not if the little guy can get a bigger slice of the pie every now and again why not.

I was just responding to your question man......No way will a Pro Union guy (not saying you) agree with my opinion of unions being outdated, greedy and for the most part alot like socialist gubment....JMO look at the violence they spew when you talk about them feeling the pinch that others have in this economy. What makes them better than me? Look at the amount of bailout money they received and did nothing constructive with. I thought teachers were gonna get hired and all kinds of crap with the millions that Wisconson received. Where is that money? Millions??

To answer your other question....If I ask a man in the field if he likes the PW when it's more than his base pay the answer is YES!!! Thats human nature. If I ask folks in the office who do not work on-site at PW jobs since they are management they say it SUKKS. Here is why...to work in the office you usually have shown some ability to lead, manage or just plain been there long enough. Now you get a project awarded to your company and you have to pay a guy the PW just because he fits a "classification" like is he wearing tools or not. That should not be what decides if a guy gets paid $22 an hour usual pay and now $35 an hour. It should be performance, ability and is he making you money. This weeds out slackers and promotes competency. Giving money promotes lazy, entitlement attitudes. Look at our welfare system....prime example.

Does the guy in the field care where the money came from? Prolly not but he should. When you give money to someone it means you have taken it from someone else. That means taxes. So instead of making unions play with common sense law makers will tax folks more or get federal bailouts (taxes) so we can pay the builders more to do the same job as before (usually worse now) just because unions felt it was unfair that they pay their members waaaay to much and can't compete in the construction bid market. Their thinking is greed. They can't win by competing so they pad the pockets of politicians to try and level the playing field.

The only reason that mans pay jumped that high is the Unions...it wasn't that he just became better at his job and in fact jobs are harder to complete now more than ever. Guys don't want to work as hard because the longer the job lasts the more he gets are $35 an hour rate. See the problem?? Giving money to someone for the sake of giving money based on a "classification" is wrong and thats what Unions do. Thats what the gubment does in many areas as well.

Instead of saying you folks who have done well by going to school, working hard, paying your dues, dealing with the headaches and playing by the book can enjoy the fruits of your labor they would rather say nope you have too much so give more to the folks who chose not too do it your way. Why not reverse that and say those of you who didn't do enough need to start and sleep in the bed you made. Stop whining and get your arse out there! All men are equal right?? Why not let them be equal by lifting everyone up instead of lowering everyone down?

Unions act as if the money is being generated by some magical money tree. It's not at all and the folks in Wisconson and other states are finding this out. Their federal taxes have been bailing these dang things out for years. They can organize into thugs and have had ties to organized crime for decades.

I hope they all get busted or damaged to the point of falling apart. They have broken the law as they see fit and are a huge waste of tax payer money.

Of course you see where our POTUS stands on Unions. He loves them since they supported him as he was a community organizer and loved the unions. Now we see again how he caters to his buddies.

[dac244]

[QUOTE=DJD;443137]

I was just responding to your question man......No way will a Pro Union guy (not saying you) agree with my opinion of unions being outdated, greedy and for the most part alot like socialist gubment....JMO look at the violence they spew when you talk about them feeling the pinch that others have in this economy. What makes them better than me? Look at the amount of bailout money they received and did nothing constructive with. I thought teachers were gonna get hired and all kinds of crap with the millions that Wisconson received. Where is that money? Millions??

To answer your other question....If I ask a man in the field if he likes the PW when it's more than his base pay the answer is YES!!! Thats human nature. If I ask folks in the office who do not work on-site at PW jobs since they are management they say it SUKKS. Here is why...to work in the office you usually have shown some ability to lead, manage or just plain been there long enough. Now you get a project awarded to your company and you have to pay a guy the PW just because he fits a "classification" like is he wearing tools or not. That should not be what decides if a guy gets paid $22 an hour usual pay and now $35 an hour. It should be performance, ability and is he making you money. This weeds out slackers and promotes competency. Giving money promotes lazy, entitlement attitudes. Look at our welfare system....prime example.

Does the guy in the field care where the money came from? Prolly not but he should. When you give money to someone it means you have taken it from someone else. That means taxes. So instead of making unions play with common sense law makers will tax folks more or get federal bailouts (taxes) so we can pay the builders more to do the same job as before (usually worse now) just because unions felt it was unfair that they pay their members waaaay to much and can't compete in the construction bid market. Their thinking is greed. They can't win by competing so they pad the pockets of politicians to try and level the playing field.

The only reason that mans pay jumped that high is the Unions...it wasn't that he just became better at his job and in fact jobs are harder to complete now more than ever. Guys don't want to work as hard because the longer the job lasts the more he gets are $35 an hour rate. See the problem?? Giving money to someone for the sake of giving money based on a "classification" is wrong and thats what Unions do. Thats what the gubment does in many areas as well.

Instead of saying you folks who have done well by going to school, working hard, paying your dues, dealing with the headaches and playing by the book can enjoy the fruits of your labor they would rather say nope you have too much so give more to the folks who chose not too do it your way. Why not reverse that and say those of you who didn't do enough need to start and sleep in the bed you made. Stop whining and get your arse out there! All men are equal right?? Why not let them be equal by lifting everyone up instead of lowering everyone down?

Unions act as if the money is being generated by some magical money tree. It's not at all and the folks in Wisconson and other states are finding this out. Their federal taxes have been bailing these dang things out for years. They can organize into thugs and have had ties to organized crime for decades.

I hope they all get busted or damaged to the point of falling apart. They have broken the law as they see fit and are a huge waste of tax payer money.

Of course you see where our POTUS stands on Unions. He loves them since they supported him as he was a community organizer and loved the unions. Now we see again how he caters to his buddies.

I can't believe I'am responding to this cause I hate debating on a board I guess I 'am old school I would much rather talk face to face. But like I said I spent 26 years in the building trades 24 with the same contractor and yes I made a decent wage. But I went through a 5 year apprenticeship then had to take a test to receive my license not to mention other certs I received through the years.I am speaking just about the building trades union here and I can tell you this if you are not any count you will not work they will and do police there own ranks cause if you don't work and the guy next to you don't work then your employer is not going to make money and in turn you will not have a job. I know this is hard for some to imagine but not all union people are lazy pos I know a bunch I will put up against the best in any trade.

[Chubminnow]

Hey Dac....judging from your last post I can tell you're a decent guy...anyone (almost anyone) who spends considerable amounts of time in the construction industry, like yourself, me, DJD and others weren't able to put in as many years as we have by being lazy or not pulling our weight, union or non-union either one....we've put in this amount of time because we work hard and we enjoy what we do. So anyway....here's your online handshake.

Now....looking at the level of constuction dollars it takes to utilize the wage rates, which as things stand today are 100K per project in Indiana and 250K per project in Kentucky, these rates have not changed at all since they were enacted. Seems to me like the wage system needs to be reviewed, maybe it's time to set new levels....I can't remember how long it's been since I worked on a government project in Kentucky that was less than 250K. If a project entails substantial systems upgrades at all it's going to go over the 250K mark easily, this doesn't even count interior/exterior renovations and modifications. Honestly I'm not sure where they came up with the 250K number to begin with in the first place...but it's been set at that level for a long time, the cost of all materials have shot through the roof since the 250K number was put into place. Maybe it's time to raise the bar to 500K or 750K? It sure would help save the tax payers a lot of money.

[DJD]

Hey Dac....judging from your last post I can tell you're a decent guy...anyone (almost anyone) who spends considerable amounts of time in the construction industry, like yourself, me, DJD and others weren't able to put in as many years as we have by being lazy or not pulling our weight, union or non-union either one....we've put in this amount of time because we work hard and we enjoy what we do. So anyway....here's your online handshake.

Now....looking at the level of constuction dollars it takes to utilize the wage rates, which as things stand today are 100K per project in Indiana and 250K per project in Kentucky, these rates have not changed at all since they were enacted. Seems to me like the wage system needs to be reviewed, maybe it's time to set new levels....I can't remember how long it's been since I worked on a government project in Kentucky that was less than 250K. If a project entails substantial systems upgrades at all it's going to go over the 250K mark easily, this doesn't even count interior/exterior renovations and modifications. Honestly I'm not sure where they came up with the 250K number to begin with in the first place...but it's been set at that level for a long time, the cost of all materials have shot through the roof since the 250K number was put into place. Maybe it's time to raise the bar to 500K or 750K? It sure would help save the tax payers a lot of money.

Dang Tim we talked about the same thing earlier in the year. That figure does seem out of date. Your right on with the cost of materials.....whew conduit and wire are crazy high and climbing more all the time. If I bid a job with alot of cable I put a disclaimer in there for a certain amount of time so I don't get stuck eating 20K because some OPEC nation has civil unrest. Heck some of the supply houses won't honor prices more than a day!
Much worse for electrical trades as they could have run after run of the big feeder cables. Can you imagine having to honor pricing for hundreds and hundreds of feet of that?? Conduit? Tough times out there and if prices keep rising the perceived economic recovery will sloooow way down. Can you imagine paying $5 a gallon for 10-20 service vehicles?

[dac244]

Hey Dac....judging from your last post I can tell you're a decent guy...anyone (almost anyone) who spends considerable amounts of time in the construction industry, like yourself, me, DJD and others weren't able to put in as many years as we have by being lazy or not pulling our weight, union or non-union either one....we've put in this amount of time because we work hard and we enjoy what we do. So anyway....here's your online handshake.

Now....looking at the level of constuction dollars it takes to utilize the wage rates, which as things stand today are 100K per project in Indiana and 250K per project in Kentucky, these rates have not changed at all since they were enacted. Seems to me like the wage system needs to be reviewed, maybe it's time to set new levels....I can't remember how long it's been since I worked on a government project in Kentucky that was less than 250K. If a project entails substantial systems upgrades at all it's going to go over the 250K mark easily, this doesn't even count interior/exterior renovations and modifications. Honestly I'm not sure where they came up with the 250K number to begin with in the first place...but it's been set at that level for a long time, the cost of all materials have shot through the roof since the 250K number was put into place. Maybe it's time to raise the bar to 500K or 750K? It sure would help save the tax payers a lot of money.

Same to you and DJD, good luck to you fellows in the future and your right I'am sure that figure is long past needing adjusting

[DJD]

[QUOTE=dac244;443142]

I can't believe I'am responding to this cause I hate debating on a board I guess I 'am old school I would much rather talk face to face. But like I said I spent 26 years in the building trades 24 with the same contractor and yes I made a decent wage. But I went through a 5 year apprenticeship then had to take a test to receive my license not to mention other certs I received through the years.I am speaking just about the building trades union here and I can tell you this if you are not any count you will not work they will and do police there own ranks cause if you don't work and the guy next to you don't work then your employer is not going to make money and in turn you will not have a job. I know this is hard for some to imagine but not all union people are lazy pos I know a bunch I will put up against the best in any trade.

I respect your opinion man. Your right not all are bad or good in any work place...no argument there. Got some dang good friends in Unions. It's all good man.