A question of values.......

[GeoFisher]

So we've had discussions here before about how or value system is going to crap.

Lots of folks here post that it is Christian values and Christian morality that is missing. I personally believe that.

Other, non Christians post here that THAT has nothing to do with it.

Atheists here.....and there are some Atheists and Agnostics here.....post that Christ doesn't exist, Hell doesn't exist....bla, bla, bla.....and that they have all the values and morality to "do the right" thing.......whatever.

My question is this..........those that think Christian or Religious values have NOTHING to do with right and wrong......how were you raised. Were you raised with religion as a child? The reason I ask is this........I know a ton of folks who don't believe in Christ, say they never have, yet they were raised in CHRISTIAN HOMES with a value system that teaches morality, values, etc, etc. NOT that you cannot teach those things without Christ.

I do wonder how many folks who spout about NOT needing Christ to lead a moral and ethical life actually were raised without an OUNCE of Christ??

Tell the truth.

Later,

Geo

[GeoFisher]

I should say........I believe in Christ, but is has been an interesting path...but I don't regularly attend a church. I am getting closer though.

I was raised Mormon up until I was smart enough to "question" what they were teaching...about the 7-8th grade. It was an interesting awakening. I remember to this day my social studies teacher asking the class if anyone was Mormon. Since I was really, REALLY shy back then, I didn't raise my hand. He then went on for an hour about the "lies" about Mormonism. Of course he was a "strong Methodist Christian". A few days later, I told him that I was Mormon......he of course back peddled quite a bit, but the truth had been told. I still spent time in the Mormon church for a couple more years, but by the time I was really ready for HS school, I had completely became ANTI MORMON....It took me 20 years or so to find the right group of folks to help me start believing again.

My point is this.....even though I was away from a Religious value system for 20 years, the first 10 or 15 of my years were FILLED with a morals, ethics, and values directly associated with religious beliefs.

Later,

Geo

[RICHYD4U]

He then went on for an hour about the "lies" about Mormonism. Of course he was a "strong Methodist Christian". A few days later, I told him that I was Mormon......he of course back peddled quite a bit, but the truth had been told.

Curious as to what these "lies" of Mormonism were that he stated?

-Rich

[Tim_T]

I was not raised in any religion. I only remember us going to church as a family one time, and that was on Easter Sunday my dad took us to my great grandmothers church. Never really went to church regularly at all until my wife and I started dating.

[mhall]

I was not raised in any religion. I only remember us going to church as a family one time, and that was on Easter Sunday my dad took us to my great grandmothers church. Never really went to church regularly at all until my wife and I started dating.

Yea and you turned out alright.......Ugly but alright....

[Tim_T]

Yea and you turned out alright.......Ugly but alright....

Let me stand next to Doug and I look like a GQ model!

Besides, who are you to be calling someone else ugly with that big melon that rest atop your neck?

[mhall]

Let me stand next to Doug and I look like a GQ model!

Besides, who are you to be calling someone else ugly with that big melon that rest atop your neck?

LMAO, It is a big 55 gallon tub head ain't it......

[apb]

My family was never very religious. Attended church from time to time, but not on a regular basis. I don't recall much discussion of religion around the house while growing up. Work ethic was instilled at a young age by both parents. If we wanted our allowance, we had to work for it. No work, no money, no questions. Once I was old enough to drive, I could borrow a car, but I paid for gas and insurance and if I got it dirty, I cleaned it. Parents also took an active role in our lives. That is where we learned morals. If I screwed up at school, I knew I would get double the punishment at home. Myself, pretty much agnostic by 18, aethesist soon after. Haven't seen or experienced anything in the last 30 years that would change that.

A few things to ponder. I know a lot of folks point to religion (not just Christian) as the basis for morals. I don't buy it. Yes, I see plenty of good things that religious people have done. Likewise, I see a lot of evil done in the name of religion. It seems to me that morals are part of humans and have been with us for a long time before religion was invented. Humans are social animals. To live in groups, you need certain "morals". I.e., if you are stealing from your neighbors, killing others in the group, mating with other's spouses, it does not bode well for group cohesion. You pretty much have to have a set of rules that are known and respected by all to insure group cooperation. Since proto-humans (australopithecines and such) arose some 4 million + years ago, humans have lived in small groups. Same for our closest relatives, chimps. Religion basically just codified those ideas (or morals) that allowed for people to live in peace together. This became more important as people started living in larger, more permanent, settlements. Until such time, humans lived in small hunter-gatherer groups, and spent much of the year traveling in groups of mostly related people. Religion becomes a little more important to group cohesion once you start having larger numbers of unrelated people residing together. Basically, behave or god will punish you. Well, thats the cliff-note version of my 2 cents worth.

Andrew

[elnutsmalljaws]

I was not raised in the church and only remember going on Easter Sunday or to some Christmas celebration. I did attend church back some 20 years ago after I got out of college and was very active in church as far as helping keep the grounds mowed, flower beds looking nice, setting up and taking down chairs and such. After a couple of years in the church my wife and I seperated and got a divorce. To make a long story short, I did not like the way the Deacons of the church treated me after I got a divorce even though 3 of them had went thru divorces themselves. I did not attend church again until a couple of years ago, very bitter towards the church and felt if there was a God then why did he allow these Deacons to treat me the way they did. I started attending church again because of all my health problems and thought that must be the reason that I kept getting sick and having surgery. I even got to the point that I was baptized and was asked to stand up in front of the church and tell my story. My family all showed up and a full congregation sat there as I spilled my guts to all the bad and good that has happened to me. Many teary eyes and such and a lot of pats on the back afterwords. That lasted all of about 2 weeks before I was back in the hospital with emergency surgery. Then another surgery, then another staff infection and so forth. I got so bitter that I left the church and have not been to a service in over a year. I am to the point that I am not sure if there is a God. If there is a God then why do bad things happen to good people, why do good people like my wife's Stepdad get taken away due to Cancer a week after he retires from work 13 years ago but a piece of garbage like her real father (who only 2 people on EARTH care if he is still alive) is still kicking and being the gripy piece of crap that he is. I have a ton of questions and maybe I am more bitter than most maybe I have a reason to be more bitter than most or maybe I don't. Maybe you die, get put in the ground and that is it. I am not saying Church or religion does not have its place. If people can get thru tough times because of their faith in the church or religion and it is something they can look towards to give them peace of mind then it has its place. But Church and religion may just be the best con going in that absolutely NOBODY 110% for sure knows if there is an after life and all that the Church and religion says there are. Maybe it is a place that you go on Sunday's, give your time money and faith and that is it, the pine box lid is closed and there is nothing else. Maybe there is an eternal life. A good friend of mine name Stephen Headrick told me once, "Had you rather live 75 years the wrong way then die and find out that you missed out on Eternal salvation or 75 years the right way die and find out there is" Basically 75 years versus Eternity is a no brainer if you look at it that way but I just am so bitter at how my health has turned my life upside down that if there is/was a God then WHY? I am not saying I am this wife beating, stealing, cheating, take Gods name in vane kind of person. I am saying that if I ever come to grips that there is a God and truly believe that, no matter if I go to church or not, if I read the bible daily or not, if I pray daily or not, I would think Heaven is a place that would accept me. I am certainly better off than the every Sunday church goers that go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness for what they did that week knowing full well they are going to do it again the coming week. Hippocrits are at the back of the line as far as walking thru the pearly gates.

Morals are along the lines of manners, right from wrong, respect and the world is lacking all of these and it is only getting worse. It goes back to the PARENTS NOT DOING THEIR JOBS!!!!! There is not one single person on this board over the age of 40 that did not get a good Attention Getter Spanking if they backtalked their parents or did some of the kids do nowdays and get away with it. We were taught what we were supposed to do. Whether we did it or not, was left up to us. Today, kids are not even taught what they are supposed to do, Parents let others do their parenting like the Teachers, TV, Computers and such.

[bassin_bug]

I was not raised in the church and only remember going on Easter Sunday or to some Christmas celebration. I did attend church back some 20 years ago after I got out of college and was very active in church as far as helping keep the grounds mowed, flower beds looking nice, setting up and taking down chairs and such. After a couple of years in the church my wife and I seperated and got a divorce. To make a long story short, I did not like the way the Deacons of the church treated me after I got a divorce even though 3 of them had went thru divorces themselves. I did not attend church again until a couple of years ago, very bitter towards the church and felt if there was a God then why did he allow these Deacons to treat me the way they did. I started attending church again because of all my health problems and thought that must be the reason that I kept getting sick and having surgery. I even got to the point that I was baptized and was asked to stand up in front of the church and tell my story. My family all showed up and a full congregation sat there as I spilled my guts to all the bad and good that has happened to me. Many teary eyes and such and a lot of pats on the back afterwords. That lasted all of about 2 weeks before I was back in the hospital with emergency surgery. Then another surgery, then another staff infection and so forth. I got so bitter that I left the church and have not been to a service in over a year. I am to the point that I am not sure if there is a God. If there is a God then why do bad things happen to good people, why do good people like my wife's Stepdad get taken away due to Cancer a week after he retires from work 13 years ago but a piece of garbage like her real father (who only 2 people on EARTH care if he is still alive) is still kicking and being the gripy piece of crap that he is. I have a ton of questions and maybe I am more bitter than most maybe I have a reason to be more bitter than most or maybe I don't. ...... but I just am so bitter at how my health has turned my life upside down that if there is/was a God then WHY?.......I would think Heaven is a place that would accept me.

With all due respect, Ellnut, I disagree with you totally for blaming every bad thing that has happened to you, and others, on God. I'm going to say what a lot of people on this board could possibly have been thinking but would not say it, lest they offend you. If I recall, you were grossly obese when you started having surgery. God didn't open your mouth and shove the food in that made you fat; YOU made that choice. You made the decision to have the surgery, God didn't make you do it. He didn't give you staph infection, your body did or you got it from an unsterile operating room/instruments, hands, etc. It goes without saying that you probably had a lot of excess skin when you lost the weight and have had to have it removed or are planning to. Before you automatically assume the staph just attacks you, find out the SOURCE of it. My mom had it after surgery because her home health nurse did not follow doctor's orders and elected to cleanse the wound her way instead of using what was prescribed. God didn't give her staph infection, the nurse caused it. My 25-year old sister died of cancer and left TWO babies still on the bottle and in diapers. God didn't give her cancer, her body did. On May 22, I had a serious vehicle accident in which the truck rolled 5 times and I was trapped for around 45 minutes, hanging upside down by a seat belt, in a truck that was upside down. God didn't cause the accident and neither did I, so who should I blame for all these injuries, including both broken feet? The accident reconstructionist, insurance adjuster, and MS State Trooper said they think the tandem brakes locked up on a U-Haul trailer that I was pulling causing it to jackknife, when I hit a dip in the road. My truck rolled down a steep embankment and into a ravine that took the wreckers almost 3 hours to pull it out. I will NEVER blame God and am not ashamed to tell you that, while the truck was rolling, I was screaming to the top of my lungs, "Jesus, help me." HE DID! and I am alive to tell it. The State Trooper called me and said he didn't see how I could still be alive. One week later, a lady had an accident at the same place and was killed.

It seems to me that, when things are going good and you are doing what you want to do, you believe in God. When you hit a rough patch and don't like how things are going, you don't believe there is a God. You need to make up your mind, ONCE AND FOR ALL, and make a choice whom you will believe in. If God, then serve him in the good times and the bad times. If yourself, then worship yourself, serve yourself and heal yourself, but stop acting like the the people you call "hypocrites" that you have just criticized.

Heaven will not accept you, or anyone else, based on your good works or your sickness. It is only through the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ that was shed when he died on The Cross.

[Hlleonard]

On May 22, I had a serious vehicle accident in which the truck rolled 5 times and I was trapped for around 45 minutes, hanging upside down by a seat belt, in a truck that was upside down. God didn't cause the accident and neither did I, so who should I blame for all these injuries, including both broken feet? The accident reconstructionist, insurance adjuster, and MS State Trooper said they think the tandem brakes locked up on a U-Haul trailer that I was pulling causing it to jackknife, when I hit a dip in the road. My truck rolled down a steep embankment and into a ravine that took the wreckers almost 3 hours to pull it out. I will NEVER blame God and am not ashamed to tell you that, while the truck was rolling, I was screaming to the top of my lungs, "Jesus, help me." HE DID! and I am alive to tell it. The State Trooper called me and said he didn't see how I could still be alive. One week later, a lady had an accident at the same place and was killed.

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The faith a person holds in whatever deity they believe in seems to go a long way in improving their lives and in a lot of cases it even makes them a better person,that is not always the truth as we have seen in the terrorist activity connected with the muslim faith and chriatianity during the witch hunts... For you to need your god after the accident would seem to say he was asleep at the switch in his duties to look after you before the accident... If you can be grateful to your god for saving you then you must blame him for allowing the accident to happen in the first place... We are biological creatures and regardless of what we like to believe we aren't all created the same as in Mr. Smith's case, he seems to have some monsters in his life he has to deal with that others of us don't... I have a daughter with disabling birth defects that she has dealt with the entire 40 years of her life, she doesn't blame a god or anybody else for her problems,that's just the way it is.

[bassin_bug]

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The faith a person holds in whatever deity they believe in seems to go a long way in improving their lives and in a lot of cases it even makes them a better person,that is not always the truth as we have seen in the terrorist activity connected with the muslim faith and chriatianity during the witch hunts... For you to need your god after the accident would seem to say he was asleep at the switch in his duties to look after you before the accident... If you can be grateful to your god for saving you then you must blame him for allowing the accident to happen in the first place... We are biological creatures and regardless of what we like to believe we aren't all created the same as in Mr. Smith's case, he seems to have some monsters in his life he has to deal with that others of us don't... I have a daughter with disabling birth defects that she has dealt with the entire 40 years of her life, she doesn't blame a god or anybody else for her problems,that's just the way it is.

You have taken what I said and twisted it so badly that it is unrecognizable. There is no reason for me to explain it again because you still won't get it. 'Nuff said.