Church and State

[Grumpy]

I have to add a comment concerning the posts about Church and State in the thread about "We're Getting Poorer, Congress is getting richer."

First let me say that I don't believe that the framers of the Constitution
wanted freedom from religion, they wanted freedom of religion. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the principles of the Bible were the source of that foundation. However, they also wanted each citizen to be allowed to practice their own religion, or not practice any religion, as they saw fit without government interference.

Today, our government and courts are interfering with our religious freedoms in the worse possible ways: they are trying to remove all public recognition of God from our society and I believe THEY WILL ULTIMATELY TRY TO BAN ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTIES, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.

What I really do not understand is why our churches and religious organizations are allowing this to happen. Now, I will grant you that I don’t go to church and I do not watch religious programs on TV (except for occasional spots while channel surfing); so I may have missed something, but I don’t think so.

I read two daily newspapers, receive three weekly news magazines, and I am a “web surfer” of several on-line news and information sites but I have yet to see a major effort by any religious organization to counteract the atheistic campaign to rid our society of God and any mention of Him in public.

Yes, there have been some court challenges to the anti-God onslaught as well as local churches and even individual attempts, such as Judge Roy Moore in Alabama, to protect the display of our religious symbols in public; however, I have yet to see any religious organization challenge their congregations to form a political movement to reverse the anti-God and anti-religion trend. I just do not understand why our religious leaders are so silent on this issue.

Perhaps they are afraid that if they publicly denounce the erroneous “separation of church and state” movement, they will be seen as meddling in politics and thus loose their tax-exempt status as religious organizations. Even if that were to happen, I think it would be far better for them to pay taxes now than to eventually not have anything left to pay taxes on!!

Thats my opinion and now I will shut up.
Grumpy

[Chubminnow]

First off...good to see you post Grumpy, I always appreciated your governmental views, opinions, etc...glad to see some subject matter in a thread draw enough fire out of you to make you want to post.

You're very right in what you wrote, church membership and attendance are at all time low's for many churches and many denominations. Like you, I don't attend church with any regularity either...But I do read what is called "The Upper Room" everyday, along with whatever chapter and verse it tells me to read from the bible.

Like you said...it would be better for churches to pay taxes now before they don't have anything to pay taxes on.

[jcb]

What is going on in government is only a reflection of what is going on in American Christianity.

I think we should spend less time worrying about how our government is kicking out Christianity and more time examining how we as Christians might be kicking Christ out of our own lives. As with most problems, we spend all our time railing at symptoms, but never examine the cause.

[RoadToad]

Hello there, Grumpy. Everybody knows where I stand on separation of church and state, so I won't rehash the old argument except to say that separating the two does not require us to "to remove all public recognition of God from our society." Arguing in favor of separation of church and state is too often misconstrued as an attack on religion, which it is not. And your statement that "THEY WILL ULTIMATELY TRY TO BAN ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTIES, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" takes things to a whole new level. Frankly, I think that's a little paranoid.

[kydonky]

Very good point. I see people struggling every day. Today a fellow in front of me at the corner store had to put a a bag of candy back because he doid not have enogh money to pay for all of his items. I told the clerk to pt it on my tally and give the candy to this fellow, He Said thanks man! Paid for my stuff and walked out, he pulled up nest to me and his wife rolled down the window and she said thank you sir and his 8 year old in the back said yea thank you!

My biggest concern is that we have so many churches in this town and very little presence of any real charity activities. Save for a few, most spend money sending missionaries overseas to Isreal, extended trips for retreats, buildings, bigger churches and on and on.

They have these great facilities in place and there are hundreds of children in need of after school care, yet I can only think of one church offering after school childcare.

I would like for more churches to step up to the plate and start helping families. Perhaps with this involvement more would see the benifits of living the true Christian life.

As far as the seperation of church and state goes why protect this? Take a look at Afganistan, Iran, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia. Pakistain has our textile jobs now, Iran is slowly beoming a nuclear power, Afganistan is host to 1000s of GIs and receives more attention now that they ever got with their 12 year war with the Soviets and Saudia Arabia is building the tallest building with American $$.

Would'nt you want to live in a country like one of those. Get caught with a bass out of the slot and we cut your hand off!!!

[HURRICANEBOB]

I see one connection (RE tax exempt status notes)

Everytime I get my STATE tax bill, I say "OMG", and my checking account has a religious experience.

For the life on me, I can't totally understand why churches are tax exempt, especially since they do so much apparent "for profit" stuff. In my mind, dump their tax exempt status, and if they legitametly earn less than they laid out for salaries, facility upkeep-maintenance, and charitable donations, than they would pay no tax any way.

Funny thing, when I talk with the maker at home, it costs me nothing. If I go to church, from the time I hit the front door till I leave someone has their hand out.

[waterdog101]

I see one connection (RE tax exempt status notes)

Everytime I get my STATE tax bill, I say "OMG", and my checking account has a religious experience.

For the life on me, I can't totally understand why churches are tax exempt, especially since they do so much apparent "for profit" stuff. In my mind, dump their tax exempt status, and if they legitametly earn less than they laid out for salaries, facility upkeep-maintenance, and charitable donations, than they would pay no tax any way.

Funny thing, when I talk with the maker at home, it costs me nothing. If I go to church, from the time I hit the front door till I leave someone has their hand out.

hey Bob, Jesus isn't as greedy as Uncle Sam, Jesus ask for 10% of your income. and Uncle Sam { DEMANDS } 40% if 10% is good enough for Jesus it should be good enough for Uncle Sam. and we would have 20% left to fish with. just thinking

[HURRICANEBOB]

10-4 to that, roger dodger, and amen!

Even at 10% it costs more to talk to the big guy than it does to call long distance to my mother. Hey.......does Verizon do the heavens?

[FlyLie]

OMG, will someone light a candle for me!!!

Please, some one save me from those who would save us................

[jcb]

My biggest concern is that we have so many churches in this town and very little presence of any real charity activities. Save for a few, most spend money sending missionaries overseas to Isreal, extended trips for retreats, buildings, bigger churches and on and on.

They have these great facilities in place and there are hundreds of children in need of after school care, yet I can only think of one church offering after school childcare.

kydonky, if your address shown is correct, you're in Frankfort? If so, there is a tremendous amount of money spent locally on charity. ROSM, the food kitchen, St. Vincent dePaul, there's a pretty long list.

As for after school care, there's a big reason most churches don't do it--liability. I think it's hard to blame them, with so many people out there willing to file frivolous lawsuits.

[kydonky]

hey Bob, Jesus isn't as greedy as Uncle Sam, Jesus ask for 10% of your income. and Uncle Sam { DEMANDS } 40% if 10% is good enough for Jesus it should be good enough for Uncle Sam. and we would have 20% left to fish with. just thinking

I think it reads "render unto Cesar what is Cesar's"

So you are talking apples and oranges. Look at what your tax dollars support. Highways, bridges, security, parks, fishing lakes, environmental protections, flood control lakes, commerce regulation, fraud protection, help to families, food assistance and on and on.

You may not agree with everything they do but they do a lot. So you may think food stamp assistance is unfair but the person receiving food stamps may think that maintaining Taylorsville lake is just a waste. I don't want the job making those decisions.
.
I would just like to see that 10% used for a higher purpose than bigger churches.

Now I don't think all churches are just wasting money, I have seen many doing work that is difficult and fills a void left by others. Appalchian Christian Center is a good example. They provide so many good and needed services I could not list them all. But mega chruch off Blankenbaker? Come on.

Look at our hospitals. So many were established by good churches. St. Joe, Central Baptists, Jewish Hosp. There was a time when they were actually supported by churches, but now they have evolved into cash profit corperations.

[jcb]

I would just like to see that 10% used for a higher purpose than bigger churches.

Now I don't think all churches are just wasting money, I have seen many doing work that is difficult and fills a void left by others. Appalchian Christian Center is a good example. They provide so many good and needed services I could not list them all. But mega chruch off Blankenbaker? Come on.

Affectionately known as "Six Flags Over Jesus".

I agree with you there. Organizational principles say that when something, anything, gets that size there is going to be bloat and waste.

The trend nationally is away from the mega-churches like Southeast in L'ville, Southland and Quest in Lexington etc. and toward multiple, smaller congregations. I think that model is much more effective in doing the kinds of local charity work you're talking about, kydonky.