Church and State

[Grumpy]

I have to add a comment concerning the posts about Church and State in the thread about "We're Getting Poorer, Congress is getting richer."

First let me say that I don't believe that the framers of the Constitution
wanted freedom from religion, they wanted freedom of religion. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the principles of the Bible were the source of that foundation. However, they also wanted each citizen to be allowed to practice their own religion, or not practice any religion, as they saw fit without government interference.

Today, our government and courts are interfering with our religious freedoms in the worse possible ways: they are trying to remove all public recognition of God from our society and I believe THEY WILL ULTIMATELY TRY TO BAN ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTIES, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.

What I really do not understand is why our churches and religious organizations are allowing this to happen. Now, I will grant you that I don’t go to church and I do not watch religious programs on TV (except for occasional spots while channel surfing); so I may have missed something, but I don’t think so.

I read two daily newspapers, receive three weekly news magazines, and I am a “web surfer” of several on-line news and information sites but I have yet to see a major effort by any religious organization to counteract the atheistic campaign to rid our society of God and any mention of Him in public.

Yes, there have been some court challenges to the anti-God onslaught as well as local churches and even individual attempts, such as Judge Roy Moore in Alabama, to protect the display of our religious symbols in public; however, I have yet to see any religious organization challenge their congregations to form a political movement to reverse the anti-God and anti-religion trend. I just do not understand why our religious leaders are so silent on this issue.

Perhaps they are afraid that if they publicly denounce the erroneous “separation of church and state” movement, they will be seen as meddling in politics and thus loose their tax-exempt status as religious organizations. Even if that were to happen, I think it would be far better for them to pay taxes now than to eventually not have anything left to pay taxes on!!

Thats my opinion and now I will shut up.
Grumpy

[Chubminnow]

First off...good to see you post Grumpy, I always appreciated your governmental views, opinions, etc...glad to see some subject matter in a thread draw enough fire out of you to make you want to post.

You're very right in what you wrote, church membership and attendance are at all time low's for many churches and many denominations. Like you, I don't attend church with any regularity either...But I do read what is called "The Upper Room" everyday, along with whatever chapter and verse it tells me to read from the bible.

Like you said...it would be better for churches to pay taxes now before they don't have anything to pay taxes on.

[jcb]

What is going on in government is only a reflection of what is going on in American Christianity.

I think we should spend less time worrying about how our government is kicking out Christianity and more time examining how we as Christians might be kicking Christ out of our own lives. As with most problems, we spend all our time railing at symptoms, but never examine the cause.

[RoadToad]

Hello there, Grumpy. Everybody knows where I stand on separation of church and state, so I won't rehash the old argument except to say that separating the two does not require us to "to remove all public recognition of God from our society." Arguing in favor of separation of church and state is too often misconstrued as an attack on religion, which it is not. And your statement that "THEY WILL ULTIMATELY TRY TO BAN ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTIES, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" takes things to a whole new level. Frankly, I think that's a little paranoid.

[bassin_bug]

Hello there, Grumpy. Everybody knows where I stand on separation of church and state, so I won't rehash the old argument except to say that separating the two does not require us to "to remove all public recognition of God from our society." Arguing in favor of separation of church and state is too often misconstrued as an attack on religion, which it is not. And your statement that "THEY WILL ULTIMATELY TRY TO BAN ALL RELIGIOUS PRACTIES, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" takes things to a whole new level. Frankly, I think that's a little paranoid.

I disagree about banning religious practices as being "a little paranoid." Most Christian practices (prayers) have already been banned from schools, ball games, around the flag pole, in public places, etc. Yet, provisions are made for Muslim students to have a special place and time to say their prayers at school every day. What's fair about that? This country was not established upon Muslim principles; it was established upon Christian principles.

Do you remember that a few years ago, the Supreme Court ordered a judge to remove The Ten Commandments from a government building in Montgomery, AL? Since that time they have been banned from public places including historical markers in Washington, DC. Why was that? Nobody was forced stop and read the commandments; it was their choice to read or not to read them.

Separation of church and state came into existence because, when this country was under rule by England, no one could choose their own faith or the church they attended. All people were required to attend The Church of England. That's why our founding fathers came to America, so they could have freedom OF religion, not freedom from religion. They wanted to be free to choose their own religion. That's what I learned in History class years ago and I still believe it to be true.

[kydonky]

Very good point. I see people struggling every day. Today a fellow in front of me at the corner store had to put a a bag of candy back because he doid not have enogh money to pay for all of his items. I told the clerk to pt it on my tally and give the candy to this fellow, He Said thanks man! Paid for my stuff and walked out, he pulled up nest to me and his wife rolled down the window and she said thank you sir and his 8 year old in the back said yea thank you!

My biggest concern is that we have so many churches in this town and very little presence of any real charity activities. Save for a few, most spend money sending missionaries overseas to Isreal, extended trips for retreats, buildings, bigger churches and on and on.

They have these great facilities in place and there are hundreds of children in need of after school care, yet I can only think of one church offering after school childcare.

I would like for more churches to step up to the plate and start helping families. Perhaps with this involvement more would see the benifits of living the true Christian life.

As far as the seperation of church and state goes why protect this? Take a look at Afganistan, Iran, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia. Pakistain has our textile jobs now, Iran is slowly beoming a nuclear power, Afganistan is host to 1000s of GIs and receives more attention now that they ever got with their 12 year war with the Soviets and Saudia Arabia is building the tallest building with American $$.

Would'nt you want to live in a country like one of those. Get caught with a bass out of the slot and we cut your hand off!!!

[jcb]

My biggest concern is that we have so many churches in this town and very little presence of any real charity activities. Save for a few, most spend money sending missionaries overseas to Isreal, extended trips for retreats, buildings, bigger churches and on and on.

They have these great facilities in place and there are hundreds of children in need of after school care, yet I can only think of one church offering after school childcare.

kydonky, if your address shown is correct, you're in Frankfort? If so, there is a tremendous amount of money spent locally on charity. ROSM, the food kitchen, St. Vincent dePaul, there's a pretty long list.

As for after school care, there's a big reason most churches don't do it--liability. I think it's hard to blame them, with so many people out there willing to file frivolous lawsuits.

[kydonky]

kydonky, if your address shown is correct, you're in Frankfort? If so, there is a tremendous amount of money spent locally on charity. ROSM, the food kitchen, St. Vincent dePaul, there's a pretty long list.

As for after school care, there's a big reason most churches don't do it--liability. I think it's hard to blame them, with so many people out there willing to file frivolous lawsuits.

Yes, I very much agree there are some that do a lot. I just saying there are some that operate like a country club. I'm not against churches, even if they do just serve members. God bless them for providing life guidence to their flocks.

Just these concerns are reasons church and state should be seperate. They fill voids left by each other. Government should not mandate beliefs and religions should not be mandated services to provide.

[Chubminnow]

You all bring up some pretty decent reasons why church and state should be separate. Can't say I disagree with much of what has been wrote here. But separate as in how separate??? Should we go so far as to take In God We Trust off our currency? Should we not allow prayer in schools? Having to call the 5th graders "Christmas Program" a "Winter Holiday Play" instead? Guess I don't care who gets offended just because it's against some "foriegn family's" religeon who lives here and can't speak english very well. Guess I'm pretty much fed up with going in Walmart or Kroger or where ever and have what seems like nearly half of the other customers there speak some language that I don't know.

As for that Church on Blankenbaker....man that's a big one!! I've heard there's a shopping mall inside of it...full size gymnasium, a workout facility, you name it. Plus I've heard they have church services there at just about any hour of any day so as to fit with anyone's schedule. I prefer a "whole in the wall" church myself.

[pontooner]

Guess I'm pretty much fed up with going in Walmart or Kroger or where ever and have what seems like nearly half of the other customers there speak some language that I don't know.

Maybe you should take some forigen language courses and then you wouldn't feel left out, shoot you might even hear what DVD player they prefer, what they are having for supper...... or better yet hear some evil plot they have to take over your local Kroger or Walmart so you could notify your local police.

[GeoFisher]

Maybe you should take some forigen language courses and then you wouldn't feel left out, shoot you might even hear what DVD player they prefer, what they are having for supper...... or better yet hear some evil plot they have to take over your local Kroger or Walmart so you could notify your local police.

No, maybe we should make ENGLISH our national language, and require folks doing business to DO IT in our national language.

I like that idea much better.

Later,

Geo

[pontooner]

No, maybe we should make ENGLISH our national language, and require folks doing business to DO IT in our national language.

I like that idea much better.

Later,

Geo

Do we know that they couldn't speak English? Which leads to why would anyone care if someone was talking to their family, friends....... in Walmart or Kroger in what ever language they wanted to?


And what do you do if we make english our national language and you hear someone speaking something else?