Life after death, interesting read

[Hlleonard]

If I am not correct please correct me. The Bible was written by men but supposedly it is Gods words. Who's to say its not like any other story that gets told by men or women. A cut finger will turn into an amputation the more times it gets told.

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That is true in most stories that get passed down from from our ancestors and as much as the bible has been re translated over the last few thousand years it is doubtful it even resembles the original context.
I personally believe most of the bible is legend that was passed down many years ago and was based on what the elders of the day believed to be true... Most of us know that legend tends to be rooted in the supernatural in a lot of cases.
Doesn't it seem odd that christianity as it is practiced in the U.S. originated in the part of the world that more and more of us are finding reasons to hate today... The middle east is a part of the world that doesn't have a lot of friends in this country yet christianity seems to be alive and well.... The folks in those countries have trashed the idea for something else but we still seem to think it is the only real truth.

[SLP]

What do you think about the timelines. According to the Bible the earth is around 6,000 years old but science says it is millions. How could this be possible? Also Noah's Ark carried 2 of each animal. Seems a little far fetched to me.

As far as the age of the earth. I don't really have any issue with believing it could be 6-7 thousand years old.

Look at it this way. When God created Adam for example, he was a man not a newborn. If somehow you could have seen Adam on day two he would have appeared as a grown man. Any scientist would say he has to have lived at least 25-30 years and all "evidence" would reflect that.

Well everything else IMO would be the same. There were full grown trees that were created, that IMO if cut down would have had rings for how old God chose them to be when he made them, just as Adam was a grown man. Similarly I believe that the mountains would have shown evidence of being what age God chose them to be.

However there is one verse that allows for the earth to be older, but yet not man.

Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; Genesis 1:14

We see here that was when our days night and years were established. Prior to that we can't know for sure whatperiod of time a day was. In 2 Peter 3:8 we learn that one day to the Lord is like a thousand years.

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 2 Peter-3:8

Some things we just can't know for certain. I don't really have an issue trusting that God created may have everything in six literal days and when formed everything would appear as whatever age God intended them to be. Or everything created prior to day four when God gave us our time could have been much older.

[RoadToad]

As far as the age of the earth. I don't really have any issue with believing it could be 6-7 thousand years old.

You may as well have just said you have no issue with believing the Earth is flat.

[Hlleonard]

You may as well have just said you have no issue with believing the Earth is flat.

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It is tough to try and understand the point of view of folks who seem to have the ability to disregard science in lieu of accepting what is written in the bible.... I don't believe anybody can rationally and honestly convince him/herself that the earth isn't a great deal older that 6 or 7 thousand years, in order to do that they have to deny the existence of all prehistoric evidence to the contrary or call into question scientific procedures that date this evidence or read something into the scriptures that doesn't seem to be there... "A day is like a thousand years" says nothing about the age of the earth unless they can incorporate that into an explanation that backs up his/her argument.... I just don't believe anybody can disregard the existence of dinosaur fossils.

[SLP]

You may as well have just said you have no issue with believing the Earth is flat.

First of all thanks for taking my sentence out of the context of the rest of the entire post. Did you even bother to read the entire post with my explanation?

Did you read where I allow biblically that it could also be older?

However there is one verse that allows for the earth to be older

And how I summed up the post?

Some things we just can't know for certain. I don't really have an issue trusting that God created may have everything in six literal days and when formed everything would appear as whatever age God intended them to be. Or everything created prior to day four when God gave us our time could have been much older.

Let me then ask you a question?

For arguments sake assume for a moment God did create Adam in the neighborhood of six thousand years ago. If somehow a group a scientist were able to "see" Adam when he was just two days old by all the evidence they could see would they conclude Adam was two days old or would they conclude he must be closer to twenty or thirty years old?

[SLP]

One thing I always find amusing when people use the "earth is flat" statement to mock others. It really makes the opposite argument.

The person who trusted more in the bible back in that day instead of blindly trusting in the common beliefs of the most educated men of the times would not have trusted completely in the flat earth theory. It is the bible that first teaches the earth is round.

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. Isaiah 40:22

[RoadToad]

Yes, SLP, I read all of your post, and I stand by what I said.

As for your claim that the Bible makes reference to a spherical Earth, there is much debate about that, and it hasn't really been proven one way or the other, in my view. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah, "chug," means a flat circle, like a coin, not a sphere or ball. However, creationists are quick to note that the Hebrew language at the time lacked a specific word for "sphere," so you have to look elsewhere to try and figure out what was really meant, and everybody seems to want to believe the interpretation that supports what they already believed.

"For arguments sake assume for a moment God did create Adam in the neighborhood of six thousand years ago. If somehow a group a scientist were able to "see" Adam when he was just two days old by all the evidence they could see would they conclude Adam was two days old or would they conclude he must be closer to twenty or thirty years old?"

You have already hypothesized that God may have created the Earth and everything on it 6,000 years ago, and made them appear to be whatever age he wanted them to. So I suppose if this were true, Adam would appear to be whatever age God wanted him to. I can't say I have any way of knowing what age that would be. Is this a trick question, because I don't understand what my answer could possibly prove?

[mperry]

Some big questions there.


It all starts with one thing: we were created to glorify Him. That's why we are on Earth. We do that most when we believe.

The scenario you describe - with a visible, present God, and no hell - is exactly what God's initial creation was. But Adam and Eve fell victim to pride and put an end to all that. That is what brought pain and death into the world. God could have created mind-numbed humans with no free will that would have obeyed him perfectly, but there's no glory in that for Him and no joy in that for us.

As to things "not adding up", you have to ask, "by what standard?" Proverbs says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end is the way of death." If you come from the place, which I do, which says that the human race has gotten exactly what we deserve, then what becomes obvious to you is not that God would send anyone to hell, but that He would allow anyone in heaven.

An all Love all forgiving God brought pain and death? It just seems to go against everything that He supposedly stands for. I just want to say also that I really enjoy these types of discussions and I hope it stays civil. I would never try to sway someone one way or the other.
Back on topic. Like I said in my first post I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but I'd also say that I am about 50/50 on it. I also hope that this would not keep me out of Heaven because if it does then I probably will never see it. God gave free will and I would hope that He would be tolerant of that. I just think with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them. I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness. I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am.

[jcb]

An all Love all forgiving God brought pain and death? It just seems to go against everything that He supposedly stands for. I just want to say also that I really enjoy these types of discussions and I hope it stays civil. I would never try to sway someone one way or the other.
Back on topic. Like I said in my first post I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but I'd also say that I am about 50/50 on it. I also hope that this would not keep me out of Heaven because if it does then I probably will never see it. God gave free will and I would hope that He would be tolerant of that. I just think with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them. I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness. I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am.

To call God "all forgiving and all loving" *alone* ignores the fact that he is also holy and righteous, meaning he cannot have anything to do with sin. He can't ignore it, or He wouldn't be God.

1. God is holy and righteous = he must punish sin
2. God is loving = he sent Jesus to become that sin and bear the punishment for all of us

As to "with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them" - the Bible is clear that no one is without sin. No where in Scripture will you find the idea that, when we're judged, God places our good stuff we did on one side of a balance beam and the bad stuff we did on the other side of the balance beam, and if there's more good than bad, we go to Heaven. That's just not a Christian belief.

What God does measure is faith. In Him and in Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. You're exactly right when you say "I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness." It's not a simple thing. And I believe one of the biggest myths out there is the belief that if you say this certain prayer, and really mean it, you're saved. God does the saving and He chooses how and when.

As to your last statement - "I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am" - again, this is a modern, societal belief not anything scriptural or anything Christ would have said. God *can't* accept you as you are because you're a sinner - as I am. It is only through accepting Christ that we become God's children.

Like you, I like this type of discussion and it's nice to see it mostly civil.

[mperry]

To call God "all forgiving and all loving" *alone* ignores the fact that he is also holy and righteous, meaning he cannot have anything to do with sin. He can't ignore it, or He wouldn't be God.

1. God is holy and righteous = he must punish sin
2. God is loving = he sent Jesus to become that sin and bear the punishment for all of us

As to "with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them" - the Bible is clear that no one is without sin. No where in Scripture will you find the idea that, when we're judged, God places our good stuff we did on one side of a balance beam and the bad stuff we did on the other side of the balance beam, and if there's more good than bad, we go to Heaven. That's just not a Christian belief.

What God does measure is faith. In Him and in Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. You're exactly right when you say "I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness." It's not a simple thing. And I believe one of the biggest myths out there is the belief that if you say this certain prayer, and really mean it, you're saved. God does the saving and He chooses how and when.

As to your last statement - "I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am" - again, this is a modern, societal belief not anything scriptural or anything Christ would have said. God *can't* accept you as you are because you're a sinner - as I am. It is only through accepting Christ that we become God's children.

Like you, I like this type of discussion and it's nice to see it mostly civil.

So lets say I know I'm going to die. Can I ask for forgiveness on my deathbed and be accepted into Heaven. Personally I would hope thats not the case. I realize that in the eyes of God I am a sinner. Again I would rather be judged on how I have lived my life. I don't think that anyone is perfect and I also dont think that just asking for God to forgive is enough. And according to what you are saying he sent Jesus here to take the punishment for us. If so then why should I worry about anything? Not trying to argue but again this goes against what it being said supposedly by God.

[jcb]

So lets say I know I'm going to die. Can I ask for forgiveness on my deathbed and be accepted into Heaven. Personally I would hope thats not the case.

Why not?

And according to what you are saying he sent Jesus here to take the punishment for us. If so then why should I worry about anything? Not trying to argue but again this goes against what it being said supposedly by God.

The idea that Jesus bore our punishment is called the doctrine of subsitutionary atonement and it's at the core of Christian belief. How do you think the idea that Jesus bore our punishment goes against "what is being said supposedly by God"?

As to 'why should I worry about anything', I believe that the worry, if you want to call it that, is for those who have not asked forgiveness for sin, accepted the free gift of Christ's sacrifice, and turned away from those sins.

[mperry]

Why not?



The idea that Jesus bore our punishment is called the doctrine of subsitutionary atonement and it's at the core of Christian belief. How do you think the idea that Jesus bore our punishment goes against "what is being said supposedly by God"?

As to 'why should I worry about anything', I believe that the worry, if you want to call it that, is for those who have not asked forgiveness for sin, accepted the free gift of Christ's sacrifice, and turned away from those sins.

So if I murder someone then I ask forgiveness on my deathbed then that is good enough? I can be the most evil person around but as long as before I die I ask for forgiveness then I'm good to go? I can't by that.


Turning away from sin though is not that easy is it? If we are all sinners wont be sinners for as long as we are on this earth?