Life after death, interesting read

[Hlleonard]

You may as well have just said you have no issue with believing the Earth is flat.

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It is tough to try and understand the point of view of folks who seem to have the ability to disregard science in lieu of accepting what is written in the bible.... I don't believe anybody can rationally and honestly convince him/herself that the earth isn't a great deal older that 6 or 7 thousand years, in order to do that they have to deny the existence of all prehistoric evidence to the contrary or call into question scientific procedures that date this evidence or read something into the scriptures that doesn't seem to be there... "A day is like a thousand years" says nothing about the age of the earth unless they can incorporate that into an explanation that backs up his/her argument.... I just don't believe anybody can disregard the existence of dinosaur fossils.

[SLP]

You may as well have just said you have no issue with believing the Earth is flat.

First of all thanks for taking my sentence out of the context of the rest of the entire post. Did you even bother to read the entire post with my explanation?

Did you read where I allow biblically that it could also be older?

However there is one verse that allows for the earth to be older

And how I summed up the post?

Some things we just can't know for certain. I don't really have an issue trusting that God created may have everything in six literal days and when formed everything would appear as whatever age God intended them to be. Or everything created prior to day four when God gave us our time could have been much older.

Let me then ask you a question?

For arguments sake assume for a moment God did create Adam in the neighborhood of six thousand years ago. If somehow a group a scientist were able to "see" Adam when he was just two days old by all the evidence they could see would they conclude Adam was two days old or would they conclude he must be closer to twenty or thirty years old?

[SLP]

One thing I always find amusing when people use the "earth is flat" statement to mock others. It really makes the opposite argument.

The person who trusted more in the bible back in that day instead of blindly trusting in the common beliefs of the most educated men of the times would not have trusted completely in the flat earth theory. It is the bible that first teaches the earth is round.

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. Isaiah 40:22

[RoadToad]

Yes, SLP, I read all of your post, and I stand by what I said.

As for your claim that the Bible makes reference to a spherical Earth, there is much debate about that, and it hasn't really been proven one way or the other, in my view. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah, "chug," means a flat circle, like a coin, not a sphere or ball. However, creationists are quick to note that the Hebrew language at the time lacked a specific word for "sphere," so you have to look elsewhere to try and figure out what was really meant, and everybody seems to want to believe the interpretation that supports what they already believed.

"For arguments sake assume for a moment God did create Adam in the neighborhood of six thousand years ago. If somehow a group a scientist were able to "see" Adam when he was just two days old by all the evidence they could see would they conclude Adam was two days old or would they conclude he must be closer to twenty or thirty years old?"

You have already hypothesized that God may have created the Earth and everything on it 6,000 years ago, and made them appear to be whatever age he wanted them to. So I suppose if this were true, Adam would appear to be whatever age God wanted him to. I can't say I have any way of knowing what age that would be. Is this a trick question, because I don't understand what my answer could possibly prove?

[mperry]

Some big questions there.


It all starts with one thing: we were created to glorify Him. That's why we are on Earth. We do that most when we believe.

The scenario you describe - with a visible, present God, and no hell - is exactly what God's initial creation was. But Adam and Eve fell victim to pride and put an end to all that. That is what brought pain and death into the world. God could have created mind-numbed humans with no free will that would have obeyed him perfectly, but there's no glory in that for Him and no joy in that for us.

As to things "not adding up", you have to ask, "by what standard?" Proverbs says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end is the way of death." If you come from the place, which I do, which says that the human race has gotten exactly what we deserve, then what becomes obvious to you is not that God would send anyone to hell, but that He would allow anyone in heaven.

An all Love all forgiving God brought pain and death? It just seems to go against everything that He supposedly stands for. I just want to say also that I really enjoy these types of discussions and I hope it stays civil. I would never try to sway someone one way or the other.
Back on topic. Like I said in my first post I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but I'd also say that I am about 50/50 on it. I also hope that this would not keep me out of Heaven because if it does then I probably will never see it. God gave free will and I would hope that He would be tolerant of that. I just think with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them. I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness. I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am.

[jcb]

An all Love all forgiving God brought pain and death? It just seems to go against everything that He supposedly stands for. I just want to say also that I really enjoy these types of discussions and I hope it stays civil. I would never try to sway someone one way or the other.
Back on topic. Like I said in my first post I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but I'd also say that I am about 50/50 on it. I also hope that this would not keep me out of Heaven because if it does then I probably will never see it. God gave free will and I would hope that He would be tolerant of that. I just think with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them. I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness. I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am.

To call God "all forgiving and all loving" *alone* ignores the fact that he is also holy and righteous, meaning he cannot have anything to do with sin. He can't ignore it, or He wouldn't be God.

1. God is holy and righteous = he must punish sin
2. God is loving = he sent Jesus to become that sin and bear the punishment for all of us

As to "with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them" - the Bible is clear that no one is without sin. No where in Scripture will you find the idea that, when we're judged, God places our good stuff we did on one side of a balance beam and the bad stuff we did on the other side of the balance beam, and if there's more good than bad, we go to Heaven. That's just not a Christian belief.

What God does measure is faith. In Him and in Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. You're exactly right when you say "I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness." It's not a simple thing. And I believe one of the biggest myths out there is the belief that if you say this certain prayer, and really mean it, you're saved. God does the saving and He chooses how and when.

As to your last statement - "I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am" - again, this is a modern, societal belief not anything scriptural or anything Christ would have said. God *can't* accept you as you are because you're a sinner - as I am. It is only through accepting Christ that we become God's children.

Like you, I like this type of discussion and it's nice to see it mostly civil.

[mperry]

To call God "all forgiving and all loving" *alone* ignores the fact that he is also holy and righteous, meaning he cannot have anything to do with sin. He can't ignore it, or He wouldn't be God.

1. God is holy and righteous = he must punish sin
2. God is loving = he sent Jesus to become that sin and bear the punishment for all of us

As to "with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them" - the Bible is clear that no one is without sin. No where in Scripture will you find the idea that, when we're judged, God places our good stuff we did on one side of a balance beam and the bad stuff we did on the other side of the balance beam, and if there's more good than bad, we go to Heaven. That's just not a Christian belief.

What God does measure is faith. In Him and in Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. You're exactly right when you say "I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness." It's not a simple thing. And I believe one of the biggest myths out there is the belief that if you say this certain prayer, and really mean it, you're saved. God does the saving and He chooses how and when.

As to your last statement - "I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am" - again, this is a modern, societal belief not anything scriptural or anything Christ would have said. God *can't* accept you as you are because you're a sinner - as I am. It is only through accepting Christ that we become God's children.

Like you, I like this type of discussion and it's nice to see it mostly civil.

So lets say I know I'm going to die. Can I ask for forgiveness on my deathbed and be accepted into Heaven. Personally I would hope thats not the case. I realize that in the eyes of God I am a sinner. Again I would rather be judged on how I have lived my life. I don't think that anyone is perfect and I also dont think that just asking for God to forgive is enough. And according to what you are saying he sent Jesus here to take the punishment for us. If so then why should I worry about anything? Not trying to argue but again this goes against what it being said supposedly by God.

[jcb]

So lets say I know I'm going to die. Can I ask for forgiveness on my deathbed and be accepted into Heaven. Personally I would hope thats not the case.

Why not?

And according to what you are saying he sent Jesus here to take the punishment for us. If so then why should I worry about anything? Not trying to argue but again this goes against what it being said supposedly by God.

The idea that Jesus bore our punishment is called the doctrine of subsitutionary atonement and it's at the core of Christian belief. How do you think the idea that Jesus bore our punishment goes against "what is being said supposedly by God"?

As to 'why should I worry about anything', I believe that the worry, if you want to call it that, is for those who have not asked forgiveness for sin, accepted the free gift of Christ's sacrifice, and turned away from those sins.

[mperry]

Why not?



The idea that Jesus bore our punishment is called the doctrine of subsitutionary atonement and it's at the core of Christian belief. How do you think the idea that Jesus bore our punishment goes against "what is being said supposedly by God"?

As to 'why should I worry about anything', I believe that the worry, if you want to call it that, is for those who have not asked forgiveness for sin, accepted the free gift of Christ's sacrifice, and turned away from those sins.

So if I murder someone then I ask forgiveness on my deathbed then that is good enough? I can be the most evil person around but as long as before I die I ask for forgiveness then I'm good to go? I can't by that.


Turning away from sin though is not that easy is it? If we are all sinners wont be sinners for as long as we are on this earth?

[jcb]

So if I murder someone then I ask forgiveness on my deathbed then that is good enough? I can be the most evil person around but as long as before I die I ask for forgiveness then I'm good to go? I can't by that.

Jesus knew that this issue would pose a problem for folks. He addressed it with the parable of the workers in the field (Matthew 20). Reader's Digest version:

A landowner needs help in his vineyard and hires a bunch of laborers at 8:00am. He says I'll pay you dudes $20 a day. While those guys are working, he goes out at lunch and then again at supper and hires more guys.

At the end of the day, everyone lines up for their moolah. And it seems that everyone was hired at $20 a day, including the guys who came in at supper and only worked an hour or two.

The guys who worked all day said "Whoa dude, that ain't cool! We worked 10 times longer than those other slackers!"

The landowner said in reply, "Chill! Didn't I give you what we agreed upon? I want to pay the latecomers the same as you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my cash? Or are you jealous because I'm generous"?

This is where the "last shall be first and first shall be last" verse is found.

Turning away from sin though is not that easy is it? If we are all sinners wont be sinners for as long as we are on this earth?

The best way I can answer that question is this. Yep, all Christians wrestle against sin all their lives. Even Paul, who wrote a lot of the New Testament, wrote about a "thorn in his flesh" some scholars think was some sort of personal sin.

But here's the difference: Believers aren't sinners any more, they're children of God who still sin. My identity is not the same as it was, because it's no longer my identity, it's Christ's identity in me.

The life of a Christian is one of becoming more like Christ every day. If it's working the way it's designed to, every day we lose some of our own sin nature and take on more of Jesus's nature. Any good that I do is Christ in me, any sin I commit, it's my sin nature trying to stay alive.

It's a rough road at times, and sometimes it's one step forward and two steps back. But God promises that he will "continue the work he has begun" in those who believe in Him.

[SLP]

So if I murder someone then I ask forgiveness on my deathbed then that is good enough? I can be the most evil person around but as long as before I die I ask for forgiveness then I'm good to go? I can't by that.

It is not some magic words that become a get out of jail free ticket. So if someone knew they were going to die, and just spoke something but it wasn't sincere then no. If however a person was truly convicted of his sins, realized he was lost and was genuine when he turned to ask God forgiveness and Jesus to save him then yes.

You see the way you framed the question, it sounds like a person just keeps that option in his back pocket as insurance. It is not exactly like that. It can't be mechanical with no conviction or not genuine. It is not words that save us, but rather truly understanding we are lost, understanding Jesus died for our sins, was buried and raised again, and by believing in Him and trusting Him to save us.

I knew people that were close to death, but sadly said, "I'm sorry, I just don't believe". If they were told, that doesn't matter just say these words that wouldn't have saved them

There is no qualification on our accounts, because were were 'better" or did more good than someone else. God is perfectly Holy. None of us can live perfect lives and earn our way into heaven. That is what Gods law shows us. God's law reveals just how much we can never measure up to God's standards. For myself, I know I could never keep God's law, and because of that, the law points me to the cross and the only way I can fulfill the law, by accepting the only One who could fulfill it- Jesus

[RoadToad]

Again, RT, those are Christ's words, not mine. And it would seem that if you deem eternal life "mythical" then debating who does and who doesn't inherit it would be a colossal waste of time.

I do not deem eternal life mythical; you put those words in my mouth. Although I can't say I'm sure it is truly "eternal," I have seen enough objective evidence that I believe in life after death. What I deem "mythical" is the idea that it is only open to a select few.