Life after death, interesting read

[jcb]

I wont go as far as to say I am not a believer but I just don't understand why if there is a God he does not show himself? Why are we here only to die then go to heaven? Why is there a hell if God is all forgiving? I don't go to church regularly at all and like I said I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but there are a lot of things that just don't add up.
Mike

Some big questions there.


It all starts with one thing: we were created to glorify Him. That's why we are on Earth. We do that most when we believe.

The scenario you describe - with a visible, present God, and no hell - is exactly what God's initial creation was. But Adam and Eve fell victim to pride and put an end to all that. That is what brought pain and death into the world. God could have created mind-numbed humans with no free will that would have obeyed him perfectly, but there's no glory in that for Him and no joy in that for us.

As to things "not adding up", you have to ask, "by what standard?" Proverbs says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end is the way of death." If you come from the place, which I do, which says that the human race has gotten exactly what we deserve, then what becomes obvious to you is not that God would send anyone to hell, but that He would allow anyone in heaven.

[mperry]

Some big questions there.


It all starts with one thing: we were created to glorify Him. That's why we are on Earth. We do that most when we believe.

The scenario you describe - with a visible, present God, and no hell - is exactly what God's initial creation was. But Adam and Eve fell victim to pride and put an end to all that. That is what brought pain and death into the world. God could have created mind-numbed humans with no free will that would have obeyed him perfectly, but there's no glory in that for Him and no joy in that for us.

As to things "not adding up", you have to ask, "by what standard?" Proverbs says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end is the way of death." If you come from the place, which I do, which says that the human race has gotten exactly what we deserve, then what becomes obvious to you is not that God would send anyone to hell, but that He would allow anyone in heaven.

You say that we were created to Glorify Him but what else. That's like God has an ego. How can God let what goes on here happen? Millions of people are suffering. Children are suffering. I guess I don't understand how that Glorifies anything. If anything we have done the opposite of Glorifying Him.

[SLP]

If a person does believe in God, but struggles with questions of why something may be as they are. For myself, I always think of these verses.

You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"? Isaiah 29:16

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker— An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'? Isaiah 45:9

I think it is perfectly normal for all of us at times to have had questions of why God might allow something, or why something is that way. What I get from these verses is basically, while maybe I cannot possible understand all things and all the ways of God. Who am I to questions my creator.

I have two young children, and there are time when even though I understand something perfectly, why it is and the consequences of what may happen. They are simply to young to comprehend the situation in its entirety even when I try and carefully explain it to them. They just don't have the maturity, wisdom or experience to understand as I do. Well the difference between their knowledge and understanding and mine is vastly closer then my knowledge and understanding compared to Gods.

I trust in the Lord, and go from there. By doing that it becomes a lot easier to start to understand more, and draw closer to God.

[MLTSPCS]

Also for those that talk about 'religion.' Religion itself is man-made traditions, beliefs, and practices and is imperfect. There is a huge difference between man-made religion and a personal relationship with God through Jesus.

[mperry]

Also for those that talk about 'religion.' Religion itself is man-made traditions, beliefs, and practices and is imperfect. There is a huge difference between man-made religion and a personal relationship with God through Jesus.

I agree with this to a point. I think religion is man made. But how do you have a personal relationship with someone that is not there? I think through Faith you could have a relationship but it would not be personal.
I'm not really a beleiver in the big bang theory either. Truth is I have no idea how we came about. I guess that is just another mystery. I will say this and I'm not mocking religion at all but I don't beleive in bigfoot but if I am out hunting or fishing and it is getting dark and I hear strange noises or smell strange smells then I probably keep an open mind about him. At the moment that's something that I am feeling. Sitting at home watching TV then not so much. Of course this completely different that beleiving in Christ but still somewhat the same. I have lost loved ones and never blamed God for it. My wife went through a cancer scare and had her thyroid removed and some radiation. She is cancer free at the moment. There was also another person going through the same. Sadly they didn't make it. I don't think God has anything to do with who lives or who dies. My wife started attending Church and it makes her happy and feel better about herself. She thinks that since she started attending that God is helping her. I don't think so. I would not take the Faith away from anyone though. If it makes you happy and feel better about yourself then thats great. However I don't think that God actually works that way.

[bassin_bug]

Do you believe there is really such a thing as love? I do! I can't see it, taste it, touch it, or even explain it but I still believe in it. I feel it and it is a feeling so wonderful that it is beyond description. The Bible says that, "God is love." How can we believe in love that we have never seen and not believe in God whom we have never seen? I believe in God and will die believing in Him. The things that my mortal mind cannot understand I trust to His infinite wisdom. I don't understand how my heart can beat continuously with nothing to keep it going; no batteries and no fuel needed. I understand the scientific explanation but when I looked into a heart that was being 'repaired' I didn't see what scientists tried to explain. I saw the brain of a man whose skull was crushed and part of his brain protruded while surgeons were repairing it but I didn't see one thought in it, but he awoke and could both think and speak. I cannot understand how I take regular breaths on time and don't have to make an effort to keep my lungs moving; they just keep on breathing without me giving them as much as a thought.

I have more reasons to believe in God MY Father than atheists have not to believe in Him. I don't have to search the Bible and try to prove that He doesn't exist; everything I read proves to me that He does and has always existed. I don't blush when the name of Jesus is spoken, instead my ears perk up and my heart rejoices because I know they have just given recognition to Jesus my Lord.

[mperry]

Do you believe there is really such a thing as love? I do! I can't see it, taste it, touch it, or even explain it but I still believe in it. I feel it and it is a feeling so wonderful that it is beyond description. The Bible says that, "God is love." How can we believe in love that we have never seen and not believe in God whom we have never seen? I believe in God and will die believing in Him. The things that my mortal mind cannot understand I trust to His infinite wisdom. I don't understand how my heart can beat continuously with nothing to keep it going; no batteries and no fuel needed. I understand the scientific explanation but when I looked into a heart that was being 'repaired' I didn't see what scientists tried to explain. I saw the brain of a man whose skull was crushed and part of his brain protruded while surgeons were repairing it but I didn't see one thought in it, but he awoke and could both think and speak. I cannot understand how I take regular breaths on time and don't have to make an effort to keep my lungs moving; they just keep on breathing without me giving them as much as a thought.

I have more reasons to believe in God MY Father than atheists have not to believe in Him. I don't have to search the Bible and try to prove that He doesn't exist; everything I read proves to me that He does and has always existed. I don't blush when the name of Jesus is spoken, instead my ears perk up and my heart rejoices because I know they have just given recognition to Jesus my Lord.

I see what you are saying but I disagree with not being able to see love. When I look at my grandchildren, my kids, my wife and family I can see love. I understand what you are saying though. I also know what science says about the heart but really I don't understand it. You bring up good points about atheists and reasons to beleive. I hope I'm not coming across as an atheist because I don't think that I am. Unless having doubt is the same as being an atheist. I know there are a lot of things that cannot be explained and I would not even try to. In your opinion since I have doubt do you think that makes me an atheist? I'm not going to be offended by anything anyone says. It's just I don't think that I am. Maybe an Agnostic would be a better word.

[jcb]

Hey man, having doubt doesn't make you an athiest, or an agnostic. Just makes you human.

[mperry]

Hey man, having doubt doesn't make you an athiest, or an agnostic. Just makes you human.

I was hoping I wasnt coming across that way. Like I said I have some questions that I dont think anyone can answer. I think if you look at it scientifically then their are things that dont add up going by what I know the Bible says.
I appreciate everyone who has replied to this thread and this will be my last post on it. Your probably getting pretty bored with my drivel. However I am going to continue to read and if something catches my eye then I may have to reply. I am on several other message board and there is no way this would have been allowed to stay up on almost all of them. I like a good discussion about religion and politics but they usually go south pretty quick. That didn't happen here. That says something about the people on this site.

[bassin_bug]

I see what you are saying but I disagree with not being able to see love. When I look at my grandchildren, my kids, my wife and family I can see love. I understand what you are saying though. I also know what science says about the heart but really I don't understand it. You bring up good points about atheists and reasons to beleive. I hope I'm not coming across as an atheist because I don't think that I am. Unless having doubt is the same as being an atheist. I know there are a lot of things that cannot be explained and I would not even try to. In your opinion since I have doubt do you think that makes me an atheist? I'm not going to be offended by anything anyone says. It's just I don't think that I am. Maybe an Agnostic would be a better word.

My response wasn't directed at you nor was it intended to label you an atheist. It just happened to posted immediately after your post.

[jcb]

You say that we were created to Glorify Him but what else. That's like God has an ego. How can God let what goes on here happen? Millions of people are suffering. Children are suffering. I guess I don't understand how that Glorifies anything. If anything we have done the opposite of Glorifying Him.

It would be like God had an ego if he were just a human. This is what I call the Oprah error--assigning human attributes and thought patterns to the ultimate non-human, God.

Oprah said she abandoned "traditional Christianity" because of the Bible passages that refer to God as "a jealous God". Now, if the word "jealous" meant the same for God as it does for us, I would agree with her. But what God is saying in those passages is, “Listen, I love you. I created you to glorify me and for you to have abundant and everlasting life. But you can’t do either one of those things if I am thirteenth on your heart’s priority list. I love you, but if your free will leads you to dishonor me, there are going to be consequences.”

Who better to glorify? Who deserves it more? You and I shouldn't be glorified because we're not perfect. God is.

The suffering that exists is our own doing. Before Adam and Eve, there was none--not even death. Through them, suffering (and death) came into the world. If your son murdered someone and got put into prison, would that mean you didn't love him? No. Now say you sent your other willing son to serve out your murderous son's sentence in his place, wouldn't that show your love for the first son? Yes. God's compassion is not diminished because suffering exists, but his mercy is magnified because he offers a remedy for our sin penalty through Christ.

I agree with you 100% that we, as a human race, have often done the opposite of glorifying Him. But the flip side of the coin is the joy, and eternal life, that comes to those who give Him their lives.

[HURRICANEBOB]

Can you access fisin.com from Heaven? If so, when I get there, I promise to post and tell you how I did it.