Michigans right to work law

[GeoFisher]

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I'm not exactly sure what it means for a state to grow economically but I suspect Mr. Fisher is correct... I would think jobs would grow more rapidly in a right to work state but to say that is better for the people who live and work there might not be exactly correct as I do believe the growth in job numbers will be piggy backed with lower wages, why else would employers and republicans push for this legislation unless it is a way to improve the bottom line.... There are a lot of web pages that support whatever opinion a person might have so posting links is kinda fruitless, I will post a quote from one of them that I believe to be the truth and I do believe the lower we see wages in the middle class drop the worse our economy will get.



“Right to work” means a dive to the pay scale’s bottom. The long-term impact doesn’t make a state more economically competitive. Instead, it’s a huge cost-shift, making moderate and low income workers pay more while receiving lower wages as a state’s highest income earners receive the benefit.
The average worker in a right to work state makes about $5,333 a year less than workers in other states ($35,500 compared with $30,167). Weekly wages are $72 greater in free-bargaining states than in right to work states ($621 versus $549). Working families in states without right to work laws have higher wages and benefit from healthier tax bases that improve their quality of life.

The Data I saw on RTW factory jobs is quite a bit different than your 5,333 difference.......That number I've seen on quite a bit of progressive websites, and I've seen that as a poster child for the arguments by the AFL/CIO.....

BUT Census data from RTW states versus non RTW states proves differently.

Again, believe what you want, but I personally think that it should be ILLEGAL everywhere to force someone to join a collective to be employed. Maybe employed by the only opportunity in a particular area.

Think of joe factory worker in middle america. Suppose the only factory going is Widgets Incorporated, and the ONLY WAY to get a job there is to be in the union. If I live in middle america and I have a family and I NEED a job, then I might join the union JUST to get a check. That my friend, is the single highest level of coersion that I can think of........

RTW doesn't mean the union no longer exists..........IT MEANS that the union cannot force someone to join the collective if they don't want to.

You know, the words fascist and communist and socialist get thrown around quite a bit in internet sites. I think unions embody those words.....unions eliminate a persons opportunity to think and act for themselves. Maybe they were needed at one time, but I don't think they are in today's world.

Maybe I'm wrong, and every factory out there will become a sweat shop and death trap. I highly doubt it, since non union shops are thriving all over the country......

Later,

Geo

[Hlleonard]

The Data I saw on RTW factory jobs is quite a bit different than your 5,333 difference.......That number I've seen on quite a bit of progressive websites, and I've seen that as a poster child for the arguments by the AFL/CIO.....

BUT Census data from RTW states versus non RTW states proves differently.

Again, believe what you want, but I personally think that it should be ILLEGAL everywhere to force someone to join a collective to be employed. Maybe employed by the only opportunity in a particular area.

Think of joe factory worker in middle america. Suppose the only factory going is Widgets Incorporated, and the ONLY WAY to get a job there is to be in the union. If I live in middle america and I have a family and I NEED a job, then I might join the union JUST to get a check. That my friend, is the single highest level of coersion that I can think of........

RTW doesn't mean the union no longer exists..........IT MEANS that the union cannot force someone to join the collective if they don't want to.

You know, the words fascist and communist and socialist get thrown around quite a bit in internet sites. I think unions embody those words.....unions eliminate a persons opportunity to think and act for themselves. Maybe they were needed at one time, but I don't think they are in today's world.

Maybe I'm wrong, and every factory out there will become a sweat shop and death trap. I highly doubt it, since non union shops are thriving all over the country......

Later,

Geo

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The only concern I have in all this is the weakening paycheck,there are a good many folks that work everyday and have to depend on such programs as food stamps to care for their families, if that trend continues, I don't see how we have the slightest chance of cutting the deficit unless we just quit caring about the welfare of our citizens.

[Devils Horse]

Right to work pretty much says it all. Unions can force people to join if they want a job. No union membership/dues/etc...no job. That is wrong, and should be eliminated. Simple to me.

There was a time when unions served a valuable purpose in America, they stopped companies from taking advantage of people. With information so easily available, and the media always watching that is not the case anymore.

In many cases union collective bargaining borders on absurd. Hostess comes to mind. Among other financial difficulties, crazy union collective bargaining agreements sunk the company. 16,000 union members out of a job and Twinkies going for serious money on ebay. Crazy man.

Not so long ago government workers were on the low side of the pay scale, but they got great benefits and stability. Unions helped that change. Now government employees average 100k a year AND have great benefits and stability.

Hell, maybe Mr. Obama will hire all us regular people and just let the rich pay for everything.

[DJD]

In general terms I'm for anything that weakens Unions. Being made to join a group or be penalized (fired, beat up) is wrong. Who in their right mind thinks this is ok?? Sounds like a cult or Nazi Germany. Ok maybe not that bad but in my book it's wrong. They are worried that if people have a choice they will choose not to join? What it's not ok to shy away from a union?? A man cannot make a choice? What???? Maybe Unions are not the way for everyone?? Could it be??

Of course the unions and Dems are going to fight back because its a source of revenue for the dem party but as usual it's twisted to blame the GOP and their rich donors. Amazing how the dem party survives without any major donors huh??? Must be awesome to only receive monetary support from all their voters and no one else. You know folks on welfare, gubment assistant, illegals, hood rats and the poor poor low paid college student have tons of money to give!! No money comes from rich people because they are evil!!!!
So yeah I'm happy to read of any union losing its grip.

[jcb]

Right to work pretty much says it all. Unions can force people to join if they want a job. No union membership/dues/etc...no job. That is wrong, and should be eliminated. Simple to me.

There was a time when unions served a valuable purpose in America, they stopped companies from taking advantage of people. With information so easily available, and the media always watching that is not the case anymore.

In many cases union collective bargaining borders on absurd. Hostess comes to mind. Among other financial difficulties, crazy union collective bargaining agreements sunk the company. 16,000 union members out of a job and Twinkies going for serious money on ebay. Crazy man.

Not so long ago government workers were on the low side of the pay scale, but they got great benefits and stability. Unions helped that change. Now government employees average 100k a year AND have great benefits and stability.

Hell, maybe Mr. Obama will hire all us regular people and just let the rich pay for everything.

George Will had a column recently that hit the nail on the head regarding the grave unions dug for themselves. Paraphrasing, he said that GM is now a pension and health care provider, trying to sell enough cars to pay for their obligations.

[Hlleonard]

Do any of you fellas believe our economy needs the middle class and do you believe weaker unions help or hurt the middle class... Do you believe weaker unions help with the creation of lower paying jobs, do you believe lower paying jobs cause more or less people to need government assistance such as food stamps... Do you believe lower paying jobs causes the tax base to be larger or smaller... It looks to me like the less folks are earning, the more assistance they need, the less they are earning, the less they are paying in taxes... We absolutely don't need unions, we need more folks in the middle class who pay a bigger percentage of each dollar they earn in taxes as opposed to either the wealthy or the under class and it looks like to me the unions have don't that for a good many years and with the weakening of the unions over the last years we have seen a weakening of the middle class.... For the ones of you who believe all we need is the rich and the poor, you won't like this country when that happens... The so called ' american dream' will be only a memory when we no longer have a middle class.

[DJD]

I don't believe any wants just poor or just rich. I think there is so much corruption in the gubment, corporations, media and unions that we all are in trouble. A start to me would be for the gubment to stop giving away billions, make it desirable for companies to relocate here and take care of this country instead of themselves.
Why not raise the poor by making being on welfare less comfortable? What I mean is its not just unions that are (IMO) a problem. It's the fact that just a month ago your leader attacked rich people and pandered to the poor and gubment assistance folks and promised change from his change for votes. So now what?? Is he gonna raise taxes on us middle class? He said he wouldn't. What if he does? What's that gonna do to the barely middle class or lower middle class? What if healthcare errr I mean insurance errrr I mean Obama reform costs more than he stated? Who pays that?? Think that will help or hurt middle class?

[Hlleonard]

I don't believe any wants just poor or just rich. I think there is so much corruption in the gubment, corporations, media and unions that we all are in trouble. A start to me would be for the gubment to stop giving away billions, make it desirable for companies to relocate here and take care of this country instead of themselves.
Why not raise the poor by making being on welfare less comfortable? What I mean is its not just unions that are (IMO) a problem. It's the fact that just a month ago your leader attacked rich people and pandered to the poor and gubment assistance folks and promised change from his change for votes. So now what?? Is he gonna raise taxes on us middle class? He said he wouldn't. What if he does? What's that gonna do to the barely middle class or lower middle class? What if healthcare errr I mean insurance errrr I mean Obama reform costs more than he stated? Who pays that?? Think that will help or hurt middle class?

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Yes... Blame for the state of our economy can be shared with just about every aspect of the way we live today, folks who are able to earn their keep should be expected to do so and our government does a lousy job of seeing to that, giving a man a fish does little to encourage him to catch his own... We have folks who need our help and we have folks who will take advantage if we let them and we seem to be happy letting them do so but I don't see that as being the major problem with our economy... Maybe it's my imagination that we have way too many people working everyday jobs and still depending on government programs to fill the gap between what they are getting paid and what they need to live.. There seems to be way too many jobs where the pay scale puts the person below the poverty line and that problem will only get worse the more folks get pushed out of middle class jobs and into lower paying jobs... Were always hearing the talking heads ranting about job creation but creating minimum wage jobs does very little helping with our budget crisis as these jobs result in very little additional tax paid.

[Hlleonard]

I don't believe any wants just poor or just rich. I think there is so much corruption in the gubment, corporations, media and unions that we all are in trouble. A start to me would be for the gubment to stop giving away billions, make it desirable for companies to relocate here and take care of this country instead of themselves.
Why not raise the poor by making being on welfare less comfortable? What I mean is its not just unions that are (IMO) a problem. It's the fact that just a month ago your leader attacked rich people and pandered to the poor and gubment assistance folks and promised change from his change for votes. So now what?? Is he gonna raise taxes on us middle class? He said he wouldn't. What if he does? What's that gonna do to the barely middle class or lower middle class? What if healthcare errr I mean insurance errrr I mean Obama reform costs more than he stated? Who pays that?? Think that will help or hurt middle class?

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I hate long posts so I'll try to finish here... As I have said several times, I'm not a fan of Mr. Obama and I believe some of the things he is trying to do and has done ( healthcare) might well be detrimental to our economy... I do share some of his opinions in that I believe the wealthy desiring to get wealthier is the primary cause of our economy woes and like yourself, I think raising taxes on the middle class will do farther damage to an already struggling bunch of folks who are losing ground as it is...

[Devils Horse]

Not sure it's been proven unions help the middle class. On balance unions have artificially raised wages to where companies send jobs offshore. Why pay unionized Americans 30 to 50 an hour for unskilled labor, when they can pay Latin Americans, Vietnamese, or many others far less for the same jobs?

That said I'm not anti-union, just believe people should have the choice of whether to join them or not.

Pay attention. What is hurting the middle class the most is LACK of jobs, not weakened unions. The lion's share of new jobs in the last report were government jobs.

Mr. Obama's formula is poisonous to America. Take a look around, you have to be blind not to see it.

Racial tension is the high. Mr. Obama has intentionally divided the country with his class warfare tactics, and anyone who disagrees with him and the Democrat party are labeled haters and racists. The federal government has record debts and deficits. The economy is in the toilet. Has been since he took office. Rig the unemployment numbers all you want, but that is a fact.

Opposition is weak and fragmented. Democrat party socialism looms, and the the rich don't have enough money to pay for it. That leaves the rest of us to finance Mr. Obama's new America.

Mr. Obama continues to insist the problem is the rich aren't paying enough, yet unless you're a damned idiot you can see government spending is the true problem. Higher taxes on the so called rich are a forgone conclusion, the only question is how high? It's a matter of time till the rich get soaked by the government to the point they start taking their money out of our system and heading offshore. The Cayman Islands look pretty good when Uncle Sam confiscates 40 or 50 percent of the money you make.

For my kids' sake I hope I'm wrong about all this.

[kygorski]

I've been out of the work force for almost 20 years. I had a union job, I was also a president of a now defunct local.It wasn't the wages that drove away the jobs in the area where I lived and worked. It was just a matter of the companys not upgrading,and moving to low areas[where the wages went up anyway]tax breaks to relocate plants, and the taxes eventually went up there also. But I was able to buy a house, put my kids through college[with help], and live a fairly comfortable life. My pension was not union negotiated, nor were my medical benefits.But because of the prevail9ing wages in that area, there was a competition for reliable workers.That area is now considered "rust belt" Schools have dertriorated because of smaller tax bases. But thats all history, I got MINE,and now you guys scramble for yours,Have you made any plans for your retirement? Got any put aside for the grandkids education? I'm learning to live with far less, but when I look at the bleak future for some of the americans that are being born now, I'm glad I'm old, and near the end of the trail.

[kygorski]

Union shops are negotiated. If an employer does not want one, he didn't need to agree. I worked in a union shop, if I didn't want to jopin, I didn't, but a service charge was imposed on me. This was pointed out to all the guys who were hired! The company I worked for would not allow a closed shop, we could live with that, and did.After the initial trial period an employee was asked if he wanted to join the union. I believe at one time, our local had about 550 members, that came to 97 %. BUT all emplyees benefited from thje contract, or in the case of a strike those not covedred suffered also. RTW will still allow workers to join an existing union, or not.The stats from 2000 show about 9 % of private sector employers were organized. Public sectors were almost 18%.So less than 30% of the countrys workers brought about the fiscal fiasco?You gotta be kidding.Common sense will tell you a supervisor makes more, as well they should, but when the workers make minumum wage, how does that effect the supervisor pay scale. My cousin who lives in california says big mack pays about 9.50 an hour, for part time work. And they are always hiring.