peacefull preyers

[jcb]

the bible is a retold story of judaism.

Explain?

[kygorski]

How far back can actual recored fact be traced? We know the world is far older than what some bible readers subscribe to. Was the world destroyed by flood as in the story of noah? Are there any actual traces of soddem and gemorah? How could a large population be lost in the desert for 40 years? What constitutes a biblical year? I'm not familiar with the torah, how much of ther the bible the torah, and the koran have in common? The theory of adam and eve starting civilization has been debunked. We recite the apostles creed, and that is the basis of my beliefs.

[RoadToad]

How far back can actual recored fact be traced? We know the world is far older than what some bible readers subscribe to. Was the world destroyed by flood as in the story of noah? Are there any actual traces of soddem and gemorah? How could a large population be lost in the desert for 40 years? What constitutes a biblical year? I'm not familiar with the torah, how much of ther the bible the torah, and the koran have in common? The theory of adam and eve starting civilization has been debunked. We recite the apostles creed, and that is the basis of my beliefs.

I'm not a theologian, or phd biblical scholar, but I've done some reading on the subject, and I think I can help with a couple of those questions. Not all of them.

"How far back can actual recored fact be traced?"

That's such a sweeping question that I'm not going to pretend to be able to answer it.

"We know the world is far older than what some bible readers subscribe to. Was the world destroyed by flood as in the story of noah?"

There's an interesting idea that's been advanced to explain the flood of the Bible, and that's the Black Sea Deluge Hypothesis.
Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If that really did happen, then to people who lived along the Black Sea at the time, yes, the world was destroyed by a flood.

"Are there any actual traces of soddem and gemorah?"
Some biblical archeologists believe they have located both cities. https://www.google.com/webhp?source=...w=1366&bih=643
"I'm not familiar with the torah, how much of ther the bible the torah, and the koran have in common?"
The Torah roughly corresponds to the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

While I was looking this up, I came across a really interesting site, designed by Muslims, apparently as an outreach to others. Part of it compares the Bible, Torah, and Koran:
Qur'an Bible Torah Comparison | Change the Story

One thing I want to quote from that web page is this, "In Islam, God (Arabic: Allah) is the same as the God of the Jews and Christians." That is very important to note. It is a widely believed fallacy that "Allah" refers to some other deity besides the God of the Christians and the Jews. The three religions are intertwined when it comes to the stories told in their texts. The Koran tells the story of Adam and Eve slightly different, and actually talks more about what happens in Eden than Genesis does. It is an article of faith for Muslims that Jesus Christ was the product of a virgin birth. They revere Jesus as a prophet, who they believe foretold the coming of Mohammed. The Koran also says that Jesus could heal lepers, and rise the dead.

[jcb]

One thing I want to quote from that web page is this, "In Islam, God (Arabic: Allah) is the same as the God of the Jews and Christians." That is very important to note. It is a widely believed fallacy that "Allah" refers to some other deity besides the God of the Christians and the Jews. The three religions are intertwined when it comes to the stories told in their texts. The Koran tells the story of Adam and Eve slightly different, and actually talks more about what happens in Eden than Genesis does. It is an article of faith for Muslims that Jesus Christ was the product of a virgin birth. They revere Jesus as a prophet, who they believe foretold the coming of Mohammed. The Koran also says that Jesus could heal lepers, and rise the dead.

With all due respect, the fallacy is the one quoted in the first sentence. The Christian God includes God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. You cannot separate the Son and the Spirit from God the Father and still say you are talking about the same God.

All of the things Islam holds in common with Christianity about Jesus are great, but really amount to nothing without agreement on the essential nature of Jesus - his status as part of the Trinity and as the son of God.

God is Jesus. Jesus is God. And that is the essential definition of God in Christianity.

I am all in favor of looking for common ground and getting along with other faiths, but let's not kid ourselves about us worshiping the same God.

[RoadToad]

With all due respect, the fallacy is the one quoted in the first sentence. The Christian God includes God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. You cannot separate the Son and the Spirit from God the Father and still say you are talking about the same God.

All of the things Islam holds in common with Christianity about Jesus are great, but really amount to nothing without agreement on the essential nature of Jesus - his status as part of the Trinity and as the son of God.

God is Jesus. Jesus is God. And that is the essential definition of God in Christianity.

I am all in favor of looking for common ground and getting along with other faiths, but let's not kid ourselves about us worshiping the same God.

You could say the exact same thing about Judaism. They don't worship Jesus, either. So, by your logic, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship three separate Gods. With all due respect, JCB, that is absurd.

Here's the entire paragraph, so that you can see that statement in context:

"Judaism, Christianity and Islam have in common the notion that one God governs the world and all of creation, and is omnipotent, omniscient, and everlasting. In all three religions, God is transcendent, beyond space and time, and yet acts in history and through time. The theologies of Judaism and Islam are closer to each other than either is to Christianity; both hold God to be unified and indivisible. Most, but not all, Christians today uphold that God is a unified entity with three aspects: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) who is both divine and human, and the Holy Spirit. In Islam, God (Arabic: Allah) is the same as the God of the Jews and Christians. Just as Christians adopted Jewish narratives and teachings for their own use, Muslims have adopted narratives and teachings from both of the monotheisms that came before it."

Muslims worship the God that appeared to Mary, and told her she was going to give birth to Jesus. This story is told in the Koran, in very much the same way it's told in the Bible. To say that theirs is a different God is nothing more than a made-up excuse for Muslim bashing.

Of course, I can understand why you would be reluctant to believe me on this, as I have stated openly that I am agnostic. But I would think you'd believe the Pope:
http://www.catholic.com/blog/todd-ag...nd-the-one-god

[jcb]

You could say the exact same thing about Judaism. They don't worship Jesus, either. So, by your logic, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship three separate Gods. With all due respect, JCB, that is absurd.

Here's the entire paragraph, so that you can see that statement in context:

"Judaism, Christianity and Islam have in common the notion that one God governs the world and all of creation, and is omnipotent, omniscient, and everlasting. In all three religions, God is transcendent, beyond space and time, and yet acts in history and through time. The theologies of Judaism and Islam are closer to each other than either is to Christianity; both hold God to be unified and indivisible. Most, but not all, Christians today uphold that God is a unified entity with three aspects: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) who is both divine and human, and the Holy Spirit. In Islam, God (Arabic: Allah) is the same as the God of the Jews and Christians. Just as Christians adopted Jewish narratives and teachings for their own use, Muslims have adopted narratives and teachings from both of the monotheisms that came before it."

Muslims worship the God that appeared to Mary, and told her she was going to give birth to Jesus. This story is told in the Koran, in very much the same way it's told in the Bible. To say that theirs is a different God is nothing more than a made-up excuse for Muslim bashing.

Of course, I can understand why you would be reluctant to believe me on this, as I have stated openly that I am agnostic. But I would think you'd believe the Pope:
Christians, Muslims, and the "One God" | Catholic Answers

What is absurd is to consider an orange, a grapefruit and a kiwi and declare them all the same because they are all fruit. Here's the problem: you're in good company with the Pope, and others with good intentions, but you are confusing commonality of origin with sameness.

The statement that Christianity has "adopted Jewish narratives" is remarkably erroneous. It supposes that the Jewish narratives came first, then Christianity developed, then Christians latched onto a Jewish heritage. That is not what occurred. Christianity did not adopt a heritage of Judaism after the fact--it has a Jewish origin and claims a seamless transition between the two faiths. Jesus was a Jew. In the early years of Christianity, the Romans thought of Jesus' followers as a strange Jewish cult.

That commonality between Jews and Christians ended with Jesus. The Jewish faith went one way, Christianity a different way. And the commonality between Christianity and Islam ended with Muhammad.

The central event in Christianity is the Resurrection of Christ. Without it, there really is no such thing as Christianity. And the resurrection is recognized by neither Jews nor Muslims. Without Jesus as son of God, without the Resurrection, again, what is absurd is to say that these three religions worship the same God. Is there one other example you can think of in which one thing you can declare the same, but that thing is defined in three fundamentally different and non-inclusive ways to three different groups of people?

Roadtoad, I found this statement really disappointing: "To say that theirs is a different God is nothing more than a made-up excuse for Muslim bashing." This may surprise you, but I have never bashed Muslims, and I hope I never do. Nor has anyone I worship with. Recognizing obvious differences does not have to lead us to division.

And as to my "reluctance to believe" you, please don't take this the wrong way, but my disagreeing to your statement has nothing to do with you at all.

Great discussion.

[RoadToad]

What is absurd is to consider an orange, a grapefruit and a kiwi and declare them all the same because they are all fruit. Here's the problem: you're in good company with the Pope, and others with good intentions, but you are confusing commonality of origin with sameness.

The statement that Christianity has "adopted Jewish narratives" is remarkably erroneous. It supposes that the Jewish narratives came first, then Christianity developed, then Christians latched onto a Jewish heritage. That is not what occurred. Christianity did not adopt a heritage of Judaism after the fact--it has a Jewish origin and claims a seamless transition between the two faiths. Jesus was a Jew. In the early years of Christianity, the Romans thought of Jesus' followers as a strange Jewish cult.

That commonality between Jews and Christians ended with Jesus. The Jewish faith went one way, Christianity a different way. And the commonality between Christianity and Islam ended with Muhammad.

The central event in Christianity is the Resurrection of Christ. Without it, there really is no such thing as Christianity. And the resurrection is recognized by neither Jews nor Muslims. Without Jesus as son of God, without the Resurrection, again, what is absurd is to say that these three religions worship the same God. Is there one other example you can think of in which one thing you can declare the same, but that thing is defined in three fundamentally different and non-inclusive ways to three different groups of people?

Roadtoad, I found this statement really disappointing: "To say that theirs is a different God is nothing more than a made-up excuse for Muslim bashing." This may surprise you, but I have never bashed Muslims, and I hope I never do. Nor has anyone I worship with. Recognizing obvious differences does not have to lead us to division.

And as to my "reluctance to believe" you, please don't take this the wrong way, but my disagreeing to your statement has nothing to do with you at all.

Great discussion.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I for one consider the Pope to be a better authority on Christian theology than you. No offense.

[jcb]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I for one consider the Pope to be a better authority on Christian theology than you. No offense.

None taken. But do keep in mind the Pope is an expert on Catholic theology, not necessarily Christian. Take care.

[RoadToad]

None taken. But do keep in mind the Pope is an expert on Catholic theology, not necessarily Christian. Take care.

Seems like a moot point. The Holy Trinity is a fundamental part of Catholicism, and the leader of the Catholic Church, the Pope, has said that Muslims worship the same God that Catholics do. So, unless your position is that your particular denomination worships a different God than the Catholics do, either you or the Pope must be wrong.

[jcb]

either you or the Pope must be wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time, for either of us.

[RoadToad]

Something else I find interesting is that I've never known or heard of a Jew or Muslim who said that their God was different from that of either of the other two religions. As best I can tell, it seems to be only some Christians (not all) who will tell you this. And I'm not saying this proves my point (it doesn't), I just find it interesting.

[jcb]

Something else I find interesting is that I've never known or heard of a Jew or Muslim who said that their God was different from that of either of the other two religions. As best I can tell, it seems to be only some Christians (not all) who will tell you this. And I'm not saying this proves my point (it doesn't), I just find it interesting.

Note: the following is not Muslim-bashing.

Have you ever heard the word infidel?