Life after death, interesting read

[HURRICANEBOB]

Ya know what would sell me on the whole heaven thing? Just one, just only one, eye witness report. You know, like the guy who walks across the ice when all say it's too thin, and comes back and tells you how he did it. That would help me a lot.

I guess that's not allowed, once in I guess there's a "no visitation rule" or something.

I would therefore greatly appreciate anyone who has passed on taking a few moments to drop me a text message, or an email, or write something on a rock, and give me some feedback on the process, and the results, and the lessons learned. (PS: The stone tablets thing on the mountain don't count, not detailed enough)

I mean, when I go fishing and catch a bunch of fish, I share how I did it so others can enjoy similar success. Given they were and are his children, and he taught them, why can't they serves as mentors to help those still in the journey to make the trip less arduous? If you ask a State Cop for directions, even with all his authority, he'll share his wisdom.

And that's all I got to say about dat.

[jcb]

One thing the human race surely isn't short on is arrogance... Of all the life forms living today, all the life forms that have lived in the history of this planet and are now extinct, in all the vastness of the universe we think we are the life form that has been chosen by a supernatural "creator" of some kind to be the one specie that gets to go to a place of reward as long as we follow the rules this entity has set for us to follow... It is just amazing to me how seemingly rational people who don't believe in magic or any other supernatural or black magic ideas can accept what christianity teaches as fact with absolutely no basis in reality.

The one thing I'll say about this post, Hlleonard, is that you did a good job in sentence three making a case for your point in sentence one.

[jcb]

What jcb has said is exactly why I agree with Grumpy on this subject (much as he and I have bumped heads in the past). I simply reject the notion of some mythical Heaven that is only open to a tiny minority of the human beings who have ever lived and died on planet Earth.

Again, RT, those are Christ's words, not mine. And it would seem that if you deem eternal life "mythical" then debating who does and who doesn't inherit it would be a colossal waste of time.

[mperry]

Again, RT, those are Christ's words, not mine. And it would seem that if you deem eternal life "mythical" then debating who does and who doesn't inherit it would be a colossal waste of time.

I wont go as far as to say I am not a believer but I just don't understand why if there is a God he does not show himself? Why are we here only to die then go to heaven? Why is there a hell if God is all forgiving? I don't go to church regularly at all and like I said I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but there are a lot of things that just don't add up.
Mike

[jcb]

I wont go as far as to say I am not a believer but I just don't understand why if there is a God he does not show himself? Why are we here only to die then go to heaven? Why is there a hell if God is all forgiving? I don't go to church regularly at all and like I said I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but there are a lot of things that just don't add up.
Mike

Some big questions there.


It all starts with one thing: we were created to glorify Him. That's why we are on Earth. We do that most when we believe.

The scenario you describe - with a visible, present God, and no hell - is exactly what God's initial creation was. But Adam and Eve fell victim to pride and put an end to all that. That is what brought pain and death into the world. God could have created mind-numbed humans with no free will that would have obeyed him perfectly, but there's no glory in that for Him and no joy in that for us.

As to things "not adding up", you have to ask, "by what standard?" Proverbs says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end is the way of death." If you come from the place, which I do, which says that the human race has gotten exactly what we deserve, then what becomes obvious to you is not that God would send anyone to hell, but that He would allow anyone in heaven.

[RoadToad]

Again, RT, those are Christ's words, not mine. And it would seem that if you deem eternal life "mythical" then debating who does and who doesn't inherit it would be a colossal waste of time.

I do not deem eternal life mythical; you put those words in my mouth. Although I can't say I'm sure it is truly "eternal," I have seen enough objective evidence that I believe in life after death. What I deem "mythical" is the idea that it is only open to a select few.

[mperry]

Some big questions there.


It all starts with one thing: we were created to glorify Him. That's why we are on Earth. We do that most when we believe.

The scenario you describe - with a visible, present God, and no hell - is exactly what God's initial creation was. But Adam and Eve fell victim to pride and put an end to all that. That is what brought pain and death into the world. God could have created mind-numbed humans with no free will that would have obeyed him perfectly, but there's no glory in that for Him and no joy in that for us.

As to things "not adding up", you have to ask, "by what standard?" Proverbs says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end is the way of death." If you come from the place, which I do, which says that the human race has gotten exactly what we deserve, then what becomes obvious to you is not that God would send anyone to hell, but that He would allow anyone in heaven.

You say that we were created to Glorify Him but what else. That's like God has an ego. How can God let what goes on here happen? Millions of people are suffering. Children are suffering. I guess I don't understand how that Glorifies anything. If anything we have done the opposite of Glorifying Him.

[SLP]

If a person does believe in God, but struggles with questions of why something may be as they are. For myself, I always think of these verses.

You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"? Isaiah 29:16

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker— An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'? Isaiah 45:9

I think it is perfectly normal for all of us at times to have had questions of why God might allow something, or why something is that way. What I get from these verses is basically, while maybe I cannot possible understand all things and all the ways of God. Who am I to questions my creator.

I have two young children, and there are time when even though I understand something perfectly, why it is and the consequences of what may happen. They are simply to young to comprehend the situation in its entirety even when I try and carefully explain it to them. They just don't have the maturity, wisdom or experience to understand as I do. Well the difference between their knowledge and understanding and mine is vastly closer then my knowledge and understanding compared to Gods.

I trust in the Lord, and go from there. By doing that it becomes a lot easier to start to understand more, and draw closer to God.

[jcb]

I do not deem eternal life mythical; you put those words in my mouth. Although I can't say I'm sure it is truly "eternal," I have seen enough objective evidence that I believe in life after death. What I deem "mythical" is the idea that it is only open to a select few.

Ah, ok, sorry for misunderstanding.

[jcb]

You say that we were created to Glorify Him but what else. That's like God has an ego. How can God let what goes on here happen? Millions of people are suffering. Children are suffering. I guess I don't understand how that Glorifies anything. If anything we have done the opposite of Glorifying Him.

It would be like God had an ego if he were just a human. This is what I call the Oprah error--assigning human attributes and thought patterns to the ultimate non-human, God.

Oprah said she abandoned "traditional Christianity" because of the Bible passages that refer to God as "a jealous God". Now, if the word "jealous" meant the same for God as it does for us, I would agree with her. But what God is saying in those passages is, “Listen, I love you. I created you to glorify me and for you to have abundant and everlasting life. But you can’t do either one of those things if I am thirteenth on your heart’s priority list. I love you, but if your free will leads you to dishonor me, there are going to be consequences.”

Who better to glorify? Who deserves it more? You and I shouldn't be glorified because we're not perfect. God is.

The suffering that exists is our own doing. Before Adam and Eve, there was none--not even death. Through them, suffering (and death) came into the world. If your son murdered someone and got put into prison, would that mean you didn't love him? No. Now say you sent your other willing son to serve out your murderous son's sentence in his place, wouldn't that show your love for the first son? Yes. God's compassion is not diminished because suffering exists, but his mercy is magnified because he offers a remedy for our sin penalty through Christ.

I agree with you 100% that we, as a human race, have often done the opposite of glorifying Him. But the flip side of the coin is the joy, and eternal life, that comes to those who give Him their lives.

[HURRICANEBOB]

Can you access fisin.com from Heaven? If so, when I get there, I promise to post and tell you how I did it.

[jcb]

Can you access fisin.com from Heaven? If so, when I get there, I promise to post and tell you how I did it.

Sounds like a plan. I bet there is some SERIOUS broadband in heaven.