Big Oil continues to win

[Tim_T]

I am not completely sold on drilling here for a couple of reasons. Too many people refuse to even LOOK at the environmental impact. I am all for drilling, but it better be done in as safe a manner and with as little impact as possible. If it cost a few dollars more to do it safely, who cares. I am sick of seeing places get trashed so that some huge billion dollar corporation can save $5! It happens all the time, you need to look no further than mountain top removal coal mining.

There is a situation going on with a ski resort in Minnesota right now where they want to drain even more water out of a wild trout river so that they can make more snow in order to expand there ski resort. The kicker is, they could get the water from Lake Superior, which has tons of water and would cause little to no impact, but it would cost them more money!

Here is an Aldo Leopold quote that I wish people would keep in mind when tempted to place property values over human values:
"Cease being intimidated by the argument that a right action is impossible because it does not yield maximum profits, or that a wrong action is to be condoned because it pays."

I wish we would do SERIOUS research on alternative energy sources, but unforunately, it seems we will have to completely run out of oil for this to be the case. After all, it might cost the stockholders at Exxon a few dollars out of their millions!

[roadrunner]

Tim I want to make a few comments I have listened to big oil take a beating on here long enough. Sorry this is long

First we can drill in Alaska and not in a pristine beautiful area but a barren waste land just at the edge of ANWAR and in the state of Montana and North Dakota. I don’t think you have to worry about destroying the environment by drilling on land been done for 110 years.

Second big oil makes 16 cents profit per gallon when gas is $4.00 a gallon 12 cents when it is $3.00 a gallon. Government taxes us 18 cents per gallon no matter what the price is and they drag the CEO of big oil before congress and put on a show for the American people.

States charge around 25 to 40 cents per gallon with Kentucky at only 22 cents

I know it sounds like I am connected to big oil but I have nothing to do in the oil industry other than I have a 401K which would own some stock in the mutual funds (I think).
I do live in a town that has a refinery and they are great corporate neighbors. They do more for the community than the federal government has ever done.

Also you would be shocked at how much of a capital hog a refinery is. They are doing a 300 million project now to take benzene out of gasoline because of a government mandate. Before that it was 280 million to take sulfur out of diesel.

About ten years ago they decided that all employees and contractors in the plant had to wear nomex fire retardant coveralls this was not a government mandate but a safety issue and was put in their safety rules that as of Oct 1st all employees would be required to wear these coveralls. Oct 1st rolls around and the coveralls are not here from the supplier so they informed everyone that they would not be available and would postpone the requirement however they failed to change it in their manual. OSHA was in the plant on other business and fined them 70 million dollars on Oct 1st they negotiated it to 35 million.

About every spring and fall they do what is referred to a s turn around where they tear down a part of the plant and rebuild it this is at a cost of around 60 to 120 million depending on the scope of the turn around. They are planning the turn around now for three years from now that is how intense the planning is plus they have to have all the parts special ordered. A lot of the vessels which are tanks with pipes and connections all over them are ordered from Japan and shipped here unloaded at New Harmony Indiana ( I think) and trucked in with a semi trailer with over 100 tires. I can’t tell you how many days and permits and the routes they have to take to get it to the refinery in Robinson Illinois. Oh yes their electric bill per month is 1 million dollars.

[FlyLie]

Tim I want to make a few comments I have listened to big oil take a beating on here long enough. Sorry this is long

First we can drill in Alaska and not in a pristine beautiful area but a barren waste land just at the edge of ANWAR and in the state of Montana and North Dakota. I don’t think you have to worry about destroying the environment by drilling on land been done for 110 years.

Second big oil makes 16 cents profit per gallon when gas is $4.00 a gallon 12 cents when it is $3.00 a gallon. Government taxes us 18 cents per gallon no matter what the price is and they drag the CEO of big oil before congress and put on a show for the American people.

States charge around 25 to 40 cents per gallon with Kentucky at only 22 cents

I know it sounds like I am connected to big oil but I have nothing to do in the oil industry other than I have a 401K which would own some stock in the mutual funds (I think).
I do live in a town that has a refinery and they are great corporate neighbors. They do more for the community than the federal government has ever done.

Also you would be shocked at how much of a capital hog a refinery is. They are doing a 300 million project now to take benzene out of gasoline because of a government mandate. Before that it was 280 million to take sulfur out of diesel.

About ten years ago they decided that all employees and contractors in the plant had to wear nomex fire retardant coveralls this was not a government mandate but a safety issue and was put in their safety rules that as of Oct 1st all employees would be required to wear these coveralls. Oct 1st rolls around and the coveralls are not here from the supplier so they informed everyone that they would not be available and would postpone the requirement however they failed to change it in their manual. OSHA was in the plant on other business and fined them 70 million dollars on Oct 1st they negotiated it to 35 million.

About every spring and fall they do what is referred to a s turn around where they tear down a part of the plant and rebuild it this is at a cost of around 60 to 120 million depending on the scope of the turn around. They are planning the turn around now for three years from now that is how intense the planning is plus they have to have all the parts special ordered. A lot of the vessels which are tanks with pipes and connections all over them are ordered from Japan and shipped here unloaded at New Harmony Indiana ( I think) and trucked in with a semi trailer with over 100 tires. I can’t tell you how many days and permits and the routes they have to take to get it to the refinery in Robinson Illinois. Oh yes their electric bill per month is 1 million dollars.

Thanks for the good info:
Just leads me back to impact of investors/commodities markets impact on the pricing $$$. Maybe if we all could stop buying gas for a month of so, they would loose their ASS. Not to be, so much for my pipe dream!!

[Tim_T]

Tim I want to make a few comments I have listened to big oil take a beating on here long enough. Sorry this is long

First we can drill in Alaska and not in a pristine beautiful area but a barren waste land just at the edge of ANWAR and in the state of Montana and North Dakota. I don’t think you have to worry about destroying the environment by drilling on land been done for 110 years.

Second big oil makes 16 cents profit per gallon when gas is $4.00 a gallon 12 cents when it is $3.00 a gallon. Government taxes us 18 cents per gallon no matter what the price is and they drag the CEO of big oil before congress and put on a show for the American people.

States charge around 25 to 40 cents per gallon with Kentucky at only 22 cents

I know it sounds like I am connected to big oil but I have nothing to do in the oil industry other than I have a 401K which would own some stock in the mutual funds (I think).
I do live in a town that has a refinery and they are great corporate neighbors. They do more for the community than the federal government has ever done.

Also you would be shocked at how much of a capital hog a refinery is. They are doing a 300 million project now to take benzene out of gasoline because of a government mandate. Before that it was 280 million to take sulfur out of diesel.

About ten years ago they decided that all employees and contractors in the plant had to wear nomex fire retardant coveralls this was not a government mandate but a safety issue and was put in their safety rules that as of Oct 1st all employees would be required to wear these coveralls. Oct 1st rolls around and the coveralls are not here from the supplier so they informed everyone that they would not be available and would postpone the requirement however they failed to change it in their manual. OSHA was in the plant on other business and fined them 70 million dollars on Oct 1st they negotiated it to 35 million.

About every spring and fall they do what is referred to a s turn around where they tear down a part of the plant and rebuild it this is at a cost of around 60 to 120 million depending on the scope of the turn around. They are planning the turn around now for three years from now that is how intense the planning is plus they have to have all the parts special ordered. A lot of the vessels which are tanks with pipes and connections all over them are ordered from Japan and shipped here unloaded at New Harmony Indiana ( I think) and trucked in with a semi trailer with over 100 tires. I can’t tell you how many days and permits and the routes they have to take to get it to the refinery in Robinson Illinois. Oh yes their electric bill per month is 1 million dollars.

I don't really care how much a cost a multi BILLION dollar company to revamp there plant every year, the bottom line is they can afford it and it is obviously not affecting their bottom line. I realize the provide a lot of jobs, but those jobs are not going anywhere as long as we are government continues to be big oil's *****. So once again, why should they be getting tax breaks?

Geo, there could be a baseline tax break, for companies making over a certain amount of profits would get a smaller tax break than companies making under a certain amount. I am also confused on the part of the constitution that allows tax breaks for big business.

[GeoFisher]

I don't really care how much a cost a multi BILLION dollar company to revamp there plant every year, the bottom line is they can afford it and it is obviously not affecting their bottom line. I realize the provide a lot of jobs, but those jobs are not going anywhere as long as we are government continues to be big oil's *****. So once again, why should they be getting tax breaks?

Geo, there could be a baseline tax break, for companies making over a certain amount of profits would get a smaller tax break than companies making under a certain amount. I am also confused on the part of the constitution that allows tax breaks for big business.

WOW.....you don't CARE??............So it is completely OK to pass those costs along.....EVEN though the changes are pretty much meaningless.

AND a Baseline TAX.....WTF.......I mean really. Doesn't that just force mid companies to never expand to be a big company. TALK about destroying the American Dream. Come on Tim .......you really don't believe that do you??

And I agree on the tax breaks......to an extent. Lets revamp that, but certainly not now. We're in a pickle and quite a few companies rely on those breaks. I can probably name 100 or so in KY. That would be great to repeal the breaks, and cause 50% of those to move out on the country......GREAT IDEA, eh.......

Revamp, but do it responsibly.

Later,

Geo

[Tim_T]

WOW.....you don't CARE??............So it is completely OK to pass those costs along.....EVEN though the changes are pretty much meaningless.

AND a Baseline TAX.....WTF.......I mean really. Doesn't that just force mid companies to never expand to be a big company. TALK about destroying the American Dream. Come on Tim .......you really don't believe that do you??

And I agree on the tax breaks......to an extent. Lets revamp that, but certainly not now. We're in a pickle and quite a few companies rely on those breaks. I can probably name 100 or so in KY. That would be great to repeal the breaks, and cause 50% of those to move out on the country......GREAT IDEA, eh.......

Revamp, but do it responsibly.

Later,

Geo

Don't thsoe two statements contradict each other Geo?

It could be a sliding scale on tax breaks, the more profit, the less of a tax break you get. Think of it in these terms, Joe Bob's bait and tackle in Pickanose. West Viriginia gets a much larger tax break than Bass Pro Shops.

[GeoFisher]

Don't thsoe two statements contradict each other Geo?

It could be a sliding scale on tax breaks, the more profit, the less of a tax break you get. Think of it in these terms, Joe Bob's bait and tackle in Pickanose. West Viriginia gets a much larger tax break than Bass Pro Shops.

Not really........and PROGRESSIVE taxes simply don't work. I HATE the idea that there are 40 million families that don't pay a red cent in taxes and in fact get back about 4-5k a year in "earned income". Great idea eh. I personally think corporations and individuals should all pay the SAME TAX........get rid of all these ******** deductions.............but in the situation we're in today, these changes would have to be implemented over time.

Later,

Geo

[Tim_T]

Not really........and PROGRESSIVE taxes simply don't work. I HATE the idea that there are 40 million families that don't pay a red cent in taxes and in fact get back about 4-5k a year in "earned income". Great idea eh. I personally think corporations and individuals should all pay the SAME TAX........get rid of all these ******** deductions.............but in the situation we're in today, these changes would have to be implemented over time.

Later,

Geo

I agree that the changes would have to be implemented over time, but it has to start somewhere.

Imo a flat tax rate for all would be fair. Each person, regardless of income pays a certain percentage and everyone's percentage is the same.

One question, and I am serious because I don't know: Where did you get the 40 million family figure that pay no taxes? Do you mean they don't pay any taxes in but still get a return?

[GeoFisher]

Where is the Like button

[Devils Horse]

I agree that the changes would have to be implemented over time, but it has to start somewhere.

Imo a flat tax rate for all would be fair. Each person, regardless of income pays a certain percentage and everyone's percentage is the same.

One question, and I am serious because I don't know: Where did you get the 40 million family figure that pay no taxes? Do you mean they don't pay any taxes in but still get a return?

The tax structure in this country is broken...big time. Too lazy to look up stats, but yes there are millions who get more in a tax 'refund' than they pay in to begin with.

I'd vote for a flat tax in a heartbeat. They could burn all the volumes of tax codes and heat the whitehouse for a couple of years.

Using public opinion to target big oil tax breaks is easy right now for the Dems, and they never miss a chance for more funding of the ever expanding federal government.

How about other companies? Take General Electric for example, they make billions per quarter in profits, and after all their tax breaks they pay relatively little to the feds. Let's see the Dems drag Jeffrey Immelt, CEO of GE, and one of their biggest supporters before a committee to take away his company's tax breaks.

You cannot single out corporations and take away their tax breaks while leaving others alone. I believe the Republicans were correct on that issue.

I'm no big oil supporter, but I am big on common sense and fairness.

[GeoFisher]

I don't really care how much a cost a multi BILLION dollar company to revamp there plant every year, the bottom line is they can afford it and it is obviously not affecting their bottom line. I realize the provide a lot of jobs, but those jobs are not going anywhere as long as we are government continues to be big oil's *****. So once again, why should they be getting tax breaks?

Geo, there could be a baseline tax break, for companies making over a certain amount of profits would get a smaller tax break than companies making under a certain amount. I am also confused on the part of the constitution that allows tax breaks for big business.

WOW.....you don't CARE??............So it is completely OK to pass those costs along.....EVEN though the changes are pretty much meaningless.

AND a Baseline TAX.....WTF.......I mean really. Doesn't that just force mid companies to never expand to be a big company. TALK about destroying the American Dream. Come on Tim .......you really don't believe that do you??

And I agree on the tax breaks......to an extent. Lets revamp that, but certainly not now. We're in a pickle and quite a few companies rely on those breaks. I can probably name 100 or so in KY. That would be great to repeal the breaks, and cause 50% of those to move out on the country......GREAT IDEA, eh.......

Revamp, but do it responsibly.

Later,

Geo

[DJD]

I am not completely sold on drilling here for a couple of reasons. Too many people refuse to even LOOK at the environmental impact. I am all for drilling, but it better be done in as safe a manner and with as little impact as possible. If it cost a few dollars more to do it safely, who cares. I am sick of seeing places get trashed so that some huge billion dollar corporation can save $5! It happens all the time, you need to look no further than mountain top removal coal mining.

There is a situation going on with a ski resort in Minnesota right now where they want to drain even more water out of a wild trout river so that they can make more snow in order to expand there ski resort. The kicker is, they could get the water from Lake Superior, which has tons of water and would cause little to no impact, but it would cost them more money!

Here is an Aldo Leopold quote that I wish people would keep in mind when tempted to place property values over human values:
"Cease being intimidated by the argument that a right action is impossible because it does not yield maximum profits, or that a wrong action is to be condoned because it pays."

I wish we would do SERIOUS research on alternative energy sources, but unforunately, it seems we will have to completely run out of oil for this to be the case. After all, it might cost the stockholders at Exxon a few dollars out of their millions!

I'm pretty much convinced we don't ever get the real details about oil in Alaska and off the coast. One expert in the media says one thing and the expert from the other side says different.

I remember when the Alaskan pipeline was gonna destroy that area and hurt the Caribou migration but I don't think that happened.

The Exxon oil spill was terrible and the recent Gulf oil spill was bad but nowhere near as bad as the experts said (going on memory there).

Heck, I just think that we get so tied up in knots over whats politically correct that it makes us spend tons of money to find other ways to get things done.

The main problem I see is that politicians make decisions based on who put money in their coffers and thats destined to be corrupt. The interest of the country is way down on their list of things to do.