A question of values.......

[Tim_T]

Don't know anyone who bought one with the purpose of killing someone. Self protection is one thing, but I don't know anyone who bought a gun for the purpose of killing someone.

So do you believe that you should not protect yourself?

[Hlleonard]

Don't know anyone who bought one with the purpose of killing someone. Self protection is one thing, but I don't know anyone who bought a gun for the purpose of killing someone.

So do you believe that you should not protect yourself?

--
Oh yes I most certainly do believe in protecting yourself but the sole purpose of a firearm for self protection is a willingness to point it at someone and being willing to pull the trigger if necessary and that could very well result in killing that person... I just have a problem understanding folks who are on the religious right and arguing morals based on the content of the bible can justify killing a person for any reason when the ten commandants seem to be the guidelines for their beliefs.

[greenriverman1]

Curious as to what these "lies" of Mormonism were that he stated?

-Rich

I would also like to know?

[GeoFisher]

I would also like to know?

Everything you need to know is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith

[waterdog101]

[QUOTE=artcarney_...can't remember what it was, but I sure didn't do it again!....[/QUOTE]
Art, your post was a good one, but I got a laugh from this line. thats a good one.

[mhall]

Let me stand next to Doug and I look like a GQ model!

Besides, who are you to be calling someone else ugly with that big melon that rest atop your neck?

LMAO, It is a big 55 gallon tub head ain't it......

[apb]

My family was never very religious. Attended church from time to time, but not on a regular basis. I don't recall much discussion of religion around the house while growing up. Work ethic was instilled at a young age by both parents. If we wanted our allowance, we had to work for it. No work, no money, no questions. Once I was old enough to drive, I could borrow a car, but I paid for gas and insurance and if I got it dirty, I cleaned it. Parents also took an active role in our lives. That is where we learned morals. If I screwed up at school, I knew I would get double the punishment at home. Myself, pretty much agnostic by 18, aethesist soon after. Haven't seen or experienced anything in the last 30 years that would change that.

A few things to ponder. I know a lot of folks point to religion (not just Christian) as the basis for morals. I don't buy it. Yes, I see plenty of good things that religious people have done. Likewise, I see a lot of evil done in the name of religion. It seems to me that morals are part of humans and have been with us for a long time before religion was invented. Humans are social animals. To live in groups, you need certain "morals". I.e., if you are stealing from your neighbors, killing others in the group, mating with other's spouses, it does not bode well for group cohesion. You pretty much have to have a set of rules that are known and respected by all to insure group cooperation. Since proto-humans (australopithecines and such) arose some 4 million + years ago, humans have lived in small groups. Same for our closest relatives, chimps. Religion basically just codified those ideas (or morals) that allowed for people to live in peace together. This became more important as people started living in larger, more permanent, settlements. Until such time, humans lived in small hunter-gatherer groups, and spent much of the year traveling in groups of mostly related people. Religion becomes a little more important to group cohesion once you start having larger numbers of unrelated people residing together. Basically, behave or god will punish you. Well, thats the cliff-note version of my 2 cents worth.

Andrew

[elnutsmalljaws]

I was not raised in the church and only remember going on Easter Sunday or to some Christmas celebration. I did attend church back some 20 years ago after I got out of college and was very active in church as far as helping keep the grounds mowed, flower beds looking nice, setting up and taking down chairs and such. After a couple of years in the church my wife and I seperated and got a divorce. To make a long story short, I did not like the way the Deacons of the church treated me after I got a divorce even though 3 of them had went thru divorces themselves. I did not attend church again until a couple of years ago, very bitter towards the church and felt if there was a God then why did he allow these Deacons to treat me the way they did. I started attending church again because of all my health problems and thought that must be the reason that I kept getting sick and having surgery. I even got to the point that I was baptized and was asked to stand up in front of the church and tell my story. My family all showed up and a full congregation sat there as I spilled my guts to all the bad and good that has happened to me. Many teary eyes and such and a lot of pats on the back afterwords. That lasted all of about 2 weeks before I was back in the hospital with emergency surgery. Then another surgery, then another staff infection and so forth. I got so bitter that I left the church and have not been to a service in over a year. I am to the point that I am not sure if there is a God. If there is a God then why do bad things happen to good people, why do good people like my wife's Stepdad get taken away due to Cancer a week after he retires from work 13 years ago but a piece of garbage like her real father (who only 2 people on EARTH care if he is still alive) is still kicking and being the gripy piece of crap that he is. I have a ton of questions and maybe I am more bitter than most maybe I have a reason to be more bitter than most or maybe I don't. Maybe you die, get put in the ground and that is it. I am not saying Church or religion does not have its place. If people can get thru tough times because of their faith in the church or religion and it is something they can look towards to give them peace of mind then it has its place. But Church and religion may just be the best con going in that absolutely NOBODY 110% for sure knows if there is an after life and all that the Church and religion says there are. Maybe it is a place that you go on Sunday's, give your time money and faith and that is it, the pine box lid is closed and there is nothing else. Maybe there is an eternal life. A good friend of mine name Stephen Headrick told me once, "Had you rather live 75 years the wrong way then die and find out that you missed out on Eternal salvation or 75 years the right way die and find out there is" Basically 75 years versus Eternity is a no brainer if you look at it that way but I just am so bitter at how my health has turned my life upside down that if there is/was a God then WHY? I am not saying I am this wife beating, stealing, cheating, take Gods name in vane kind of person. I am saying that if I ever come to grips that there is a God and truly believe that, no matter if I go to church or not, if I read the bible daily or not, if I pray daily or not, I would think Heaven is a place that would accept me. I am certainly better off than the every Sunday church goers that go to church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness for what they did that week knowing full well they are going to do it again the coming week. Hippocrits are at the back of the line as far as walking thru the pearly gates.

Morals are along the lines of manners, right from wrong, respect and the world is lacking all of these and it is only getting worse. It goes back to the PARENTS NOT DOING THEIR JOBS!!!!! There is not one single person on this board over the age of 40 that did not get a good Attention Getter Spanking if they backtalked their parents or did some of the kids do nowdays and get away with it. We were taught what we were supposed to do. Whether we did it or not, was left up to us. Today, kids are not even taught what they are supposed to do, Parents let others do their parenting like the Teachers, TV, Computers and such.

[kydonky]

I am a Christian. I beleive in the teachings of Jesus Christ and that he was the son of God sent to free us from our sins.

I do not believe that I should force my beliefs on anyone else.

Steve Hawkins recently published an opinion that there is no God only science. This fellow is very smart but he has been in the books to long. Yes evolution has changed the face of the universe, stars form by way of chemical and matter reactions. However, none of this explains basic thought or reasoning and Gods gift to us, free will. We all may as well be rocks in the desert according to Hawkins. God lives in each of us. I do not know all the answers, perhaps is is all souls that make up the whole of God.

He says we should behave in a rational and caring manner simply for the sake of being rational. But this would not jive with every man and living thing being out for only oneself without a greater reason or power. So why does instinct and free will push us to reason and even self sacrifice. Not only man but many creatures. A mother rabit will draw prey from her babies knowing there is a high probability the preditor will eat her.

So my faith is in God. Feel sorry for Hawkins, even though he has made significant discoveries he has missed the greater picture.

[bassin_bug]

--
Oh yes I most certainly do believe in protecting yourself but the sole purpose of a firearm for self protection is a willingness to point it at someone and being willing to pull the trigger if necessary and that could very well result in killing that person... I just have a problem understanding folks who are on the religious right and arguing morals based on the content of the bible can justify killing a person for any reason when the ten commandants seem to be the guidelines for their beliefs.

I don't know of anyone who has a firearm, whether for self-protection or not, that is going to stand in front of someone pointing a gun at their head and not pull the trigger on their own gun. That is just lame thinking; it's kill or be killed. I have taken, and passed the state firearms test and have a permit to carry a loaded handgun/pistol. It is a reciprocal permit which means my permit is honored in at least 12 states. My job is to KNOW what the rules are in each state for my permit. If one state is open carry and another is concealed carry I have to follow that rule. When it comes to me having to make a choice in order to protect my life, it's easy, I WILL kill and let God sort it out later.

At the risk of kicking up a firestorm from some who may not have spent much time reading the Bible or studying Biblical history, still I am obligated to point out some things you may have overlooked.

You hang your statement on one of The Ten Commandments but tell me why you didn't mention Moses killing one of the Egyptians and burying him in the sand (Exodus 2:11-12). Later God gave Moses The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17). Read what God Himself said to Moses just before he gave the Commandments regarding the Israelites touching the Mount. "Whosoever touches the Mount shall be surely put to death. If a hand touches it he shall surely be stoned, or shot through whether it be beast or man, it shall not live" (Exodus 19:12-13). Before Jesus died on the cross, man was very limited as to how he could approach God; that's why His order was given. Since the Cross, "whosoever will may come." When man was limited in his approach to God, only the priest could go into the Holy of Holies. If the priest was unclean when he entered the Holy of Holies, God killed him. That doesn't make God a murderer; he had laws that must be obeyed or the people suffered the consequences. While dead is still dead, there is a difference between killing and murder. That's why I said, regarding self-protection, it's kill or be killed. One person would kill the other would murder.

[Hlleonard]

I don't know of anyone who has a firearm, whether for self-protection or not, that is going to stand in front of someone pointing a gun at their head and not pull the trigger on their own gun. That is just lame thinking; it's kill or be killed. I have taken, and passed the state firearms test and have a permit to carry a loaded handgun/pistol. It is a reciprocal permit which means my permit is honored in at least 12 states. My job is to KNOW what the rules are in each state for my permit. If one state is open carry and another is concealed carry I have to follow that rule. When it comes to me having to make a choice in order to protect my life, it's easy, I WILL kill and let God sort it out later.

At the risk of kicking up a firestorm from some who may not have spent much time reading the Bible or studying Biblical history, still I am obligated to point out some things you may have overlooked.

You hang your statement on one of The Ten Commandments but tell me why you didn't mention Moses killing one of the Egyptians and burying him in the sand (Exodus 2:11-12). Later God gave Moses The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17). Read what God Himself said to Moses just before he gave the Commandments regarding the Israelites touching the Mount. "Whosoever touches the Mount shall be surely put to death. If a hand touches it he shall surely be stoned, or shot through whether it be beast or man, it shall not live" (Exodus 19:12-13). Before Jesus died on the cross, man was very limited as to how he could approach God; that's why His order was given. Since the Cross, "whosoever will may come." When man was limited in his approach to God, only the priest could go into the Holy of Holies. If the priest was unclean when he entered the Holy of Holies, God killed him. That doesn't make God a murderer; he had laws that must be obeyed or the people suffered the consequences. While dead is still dead, there is a difference between killing and murder. That's why I said, regarding self-protection, it's kill or be killed. One person would kill the other would murder.

--
I would do the very same thing you would do to protect myself and family but I'm not a believer in a higher power in control of all we see and hear... The bible seemingly is filled with these kinds of contradictions and a person can find justification for almost anything he/she chooses to do by looking elsewhere in the scriptures... Most christians will present you with the ten commandants when that is what he/she needs to backup any argument they might be trying to make... "Thou shalt not kill" is the only wording I have ever seen for that commandant and that doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room... Folks who can justify breaking that commandant and still be able to hold on to their beliefs are speaking out of both sides of their mouth... I'm not sure how most folks would define being hypocritical but it seems to me that would fit the description... Not meaning to offend you or anyone else in that statement but folks on the far right seem to want it both ways...'" Thou shalt not kill unless (insert justification here)" seems to be the way these folks want it.

[RoadToad]

"Thou shalt not kill" is the only wording I have ever seen for that commandant and that doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room...

That's because you've only read the King James Version, where the Hebrew word "ratsach" was translated as "kill." In other versions, including the New King James Version, it is translated as "murder," which represents the true meaning of the Hebrew text. In that version, the sixth commandment is, "Thou Shalt Not Murder."