Ollympic Uniforms mad in Chine

[Grumpy]

It just amazes me how so many people, in and out of government, complain about and criticize companies and businesses that send jobs outside of the US, but so few people look at or say anything about the REASON WHY so many companies and businesses get their work done outside of the country.

Quite simply, its because its CHEAPER and easier to get the work done where they don’t have to pay such high UNION WAGES as well as HIGH TAXES and comply with so many crippling regulations and environmental issues.

When and if our government becomes business friendly, the jobs will come back. However, as long as our politicians AND PEOPLE continue to blame businesses for being successful and taxing and regulating them to the nth degree, businesses will continue to get their work done outside of the country where it is cheaper and easier to get the work done.

Grumpy

[Hlleonard]

It just amazes me how so many people, in and out of government, complain about and criticize companies and businesses that send jobs outside of the US, but so few people look at or say anything about the REASON WHY so many companies and businesses get their work done outside of the country.

Quite simply, its because its CHEAPER and easier to get the work done where they don’t have to pay such high UNION WAGES as well as HIGH TAXES and comply with so many crippling regulations and environmental issues.

When and if our government becomes business friendly, the jobs will come back. However, as long as our politicians AND PEOPLE continue to blame businesses for being successful and taxing and regulating them to the nth degree, businesses will continue to get their work done outside of the country where it is cheaper and easier to get the work done.

Grumpy

--
Am wondering just what wages yourself and some other bashers of working folks here would suggest folks be willing to work for so the richest of us can continue to get richer while the folks on the bottom half have to depend more and more on government handouts to feed their families 5 dollars an hour...4....or should they take whatever the "boss" thinks is good for that day... Unions are not the problem with business in this country...this country was doing better when unions were stronger in the last half of the last century... This country needs stronger unions not weaker ones which has happened in the last 25 years or so... It is beyond me how folks can blame unions for the predicament we are in when in fact unions strength has weakened along with our economy... People who work for 9 or 10 dollars an hour need more money to put back back in the economy,not less...The more money this country puts in the bank accounts of the rich the worse our economy will become.

[floatman]

--
Am wondering just what wages yourself and some other bashers of working folks here would suggest folks be willing to work for so the richest of us can continue to get richer while the folks on the bottom half have to depend more and more on government handouts to feed their families 5 dollars an hour...4....or should they take whatever the "boss" thinks is good for that day... Unions are not the problem with business in this country...this country was doing better when unions were stronger in the last half of the last century... This country needs stronger unions not weaker ones which has happened in the last 25 years or so... It is beyond me how folks can blame unions for the predicament we are in when in fact unions strength has weakened along with our economy... People who work for 9 or 10 dollars an hour need more money to put back back in the economy,not less...The more money this country puts in the bank accounts of the rich the worse our economy will become.

i agree 100% Hlleonard, corporate America and small businesses are not the job creators, they will not hire one person more then they need to make their product, the working people are the job creators in this country, the more money they make the more things they BUY!!, the more things they BUY the more jobs are needed, the middle class don't put their money in Swiss banks, overseas tax shelters, they spend it, even with all the regulations and environmental issues corporations are sitting on trillions of $$, and they want more, and by the way can we really trust corporations to take of our environment? their record says no, their is room for ever one to have a good life, not just the ones at the top.

Gary

[Grumpy]

Hilleonard and Floatman, your posts are typical of the usual Liberal and Union twisted thinking and logic and help to explaiin what I am talking aout. Thanks for the verification of my beliefs.

Grumpy

[Hlleonard]

Hilleonard and Floatman, your posts are typical of the usual Liberal and Union twisted thinking and logic and help to explaiin what I am talking aout. Thanks for the verification of my beliefs.

Grumpy

--
Unions built the middle class in this country and the demise of the unions in the last years has been instrumental in the dwindling of the middle class...The rich in this country having the ability to pay folks less and less wages is not the answer to our economic woes... It is the answer however to the rich becoming richer on the backs of folks who actually do the work that needs to be done.

[GeoFisher]

--
Unions built the middle class in this country and the demise of the unions in the last years has been instrumental in the dwindling of the middle class...The rich in this country having the ability to pay folks less and less wages is not the answer to our economic woes... It is the answer however to the rich becoming richer on the backs of folks who actually do the work that needs to be done.

The World has changed.....

Unions definitely helped build the United States, but they are also DEFINITELY helping destroy the economic power this country once controlled.

* Unions, and their promises have driven jobs overseas. The companies, either had to MOVE overseas or go out of business.

* Your demands for cheaper goods DROVE jobs overseas. The only way you can bitch about outsourcing and such is if you have NEVER purchased anything from China. If you have you're part of the problem. And I don't mean you directly so don't take this as an attack. In the early days of outsourcing, there were hundreds of competing products in every single area, yet AMERICANS wanted cheaper. Those cheaper products ended up winning, and Americans were put out of work.

* Now we're in 2012, nearly 20 years after nafta (signed in 1994), and we're at a crossroads. There are a ton of articles about on shoring, and there are companies that are actually moving back to the United States. The problem now is regulation and unionization...but mostly regulation. Labor costs, according to what I have read are manageable. BUT regulations must be changed to make it effective to bring jobs back.

You do realize that a husband/wife UNION team making a top rate, and getting a few hours of overtime, are in the top 10% of the Rich.............you DO REALIZE THAT, don't you? SURELY you do.....This is not a bad thing. Someone who has worked 20-30 years should be the highest paid. The PROBLEM with the labor issue is the benefits that go along with that income. Pension and Health care are about an additional 30% of this income. When you add that into the equation, it becomes rather expensive.

Later,

Geo

[Hlleonard]

The World has changed..... Unions definitely helped build the United States, but they are also DEFINITELY helping destroy the economic power this country once controlled. * Unions, and their promises have driven jobs overseas. The companies, either had to MOVE overseas or go out of business. * Your demands for cheaper goods DROVE jobs overseas. The only way you can bitch about outsourcing and such is if you have NEVER purchased anything from China. If you have you're part of the problem. And I don't mean you directly so don't take this as an attack. In the early days of outsourcing, there were hundreds of competing products in every single area, yet AMERICANS wanted cheaper. Those cheaper products ended up winning, and Americans were put out of work. * Now we're in 2012, nearly 20 years after nafta (signed in 1994), and we're at a crossroads. There are a ton of articles about on shoring, and there are companies that are actually moving back to the United States. The problem now is regulation and unionization...but mostly regulation. Labor costs, according to what I have read are manageable. BUT regulations must be changed to make it effective to bring jobs back. You do realize that a husband/wife UNION team making a top rate, and getting a few hours of overtime, are in the top 10% of the Rich.............you DO REALIZE THAT, don't you? SURELY you do.....This is not a bad thing. Someone who has worked 20-30 years should be the highest paid. The PROBLEM with the labor issue is the benefits that go along with that income. Pension and Health care are about an additional 30% of this income. When you add that into the equation, it becomes rather expensive. Later, Geo

-- I agree with almost everything you said here.... We now have to compete in a world market and unfortunately very few of us (including myself) are loyal only to products made in this country... It is always uncertain what the future will bring but I am hopeful it won't mean half or more of our citizens working for wages that put them below what is considered poverty level as a lot of the impoverished countries in the world have to do... It would be hard to convince me that folks in control of the purse strings will voluntarily pay his/her employees a wage at which he can prosper for the same reasons we go to foreign products ,cheaper is better... I will never buy that ten dollars an hour is a fair enough wage for anybody to care for their family without some help of some kind... Union wages are pretty much up and down the scale and I know there are extreme cases as you [pointed out but I don't believe they are the norm...I worked in a union environment most of my working life and I didn't know many rich union members, most of them had their whole lives financed the same as folks who were not union employees.... I certainly hope we have not "outlived" the need for union wages, that would suggest to me that our economy will continua to get worse.

[MrSplitshot]

corporate America and small businesses are not the job creators, they will not hire one person more then they need to make their product, the working people are the job creators in this country, the more money they make the more things they BUY!!, the more things they BUY the more jobs are needed

Why would any company hire one more person than is necessary to build and market their product? Business is there to make money and provide return to stockholders.

Let me make sure I understand. Corporate America and Small Business aren't job creators...but the middle class union workers are, by spending their high wages on more stuff...thus creating jobs to build more stuff. Where do you think the middle class gets those wages in the first place? Is it not Corporate America and small business?

Look, I'm kind of simple minded, so I'll give a real world example. My company employs about 700 people across the Southeast. We had been growing, opening new warehouse locations that employ an average of probably 30-40 people...our last two new facilities were in Mobile AL and Columbia SC. We have had plans to open in two other cities this year, but those plans got put on hold. Why? One word: Uncertainty. It's hard for businesses to be certain that their investments in new capital and new employees will pay off when you can't get a feel for what's going to happen with regulation, taxes, health care, the fiscal cliff at the end of the year, and the progress of the economy. The result is that 60-80 people in a couple of cities won't have new jobs to go to with our company this year. Now, multiply that times thousands upon thousands of small businesses like us and you see why jobs growth is most certainly affected by small business and their ability to create new jobs. We, like many other businesses, are pausing on new investment and keeping our money in the bank until things are more certain.

I'm not blaming union men, I'm not blaming the wants of Americans, I'm not blaming government, I'm not blaming business...I'm blaming all of it together in some mixture that got us where we are today. Nobody is squeaky clean.

[Grumpy]

Way to go Mrsplitshott, nothing like a dose of reality told by someone that knows first hand what its like to try to deal with these problems.

Grumpy

[MLTSPCS]

I have been a Union employee since 1998 and I can tell you firsthand that I am by no means rich. The Unions are necessary in many situations to keep greedy companies from not paying workers or denying or limiting benefits. I work 7 day swing-shift in my current job as a chemical operator, and have been for the past 12 years. I work nights, weekends, holidays, double shifts and such. If my relief takes a vacation and nobody wants the overtime I am looking at 16 hours. If I'm scheduled the next day I have 8 hours to shower, get home, eat, sleep, prepare for the next shift (which could be another 16), and be back to work. Take the Union out of the equation and let the company have their way and I'm making wages that 16 year old, pot-smoking, no bill or responsibility having, is making down the road at McD's or somewhere that doesn't require education and/or drug tests. The Unions are the furthest from being the problem with the economy. I get decent pay, decent benefits, pay the highest dues in our union, and pay all my taxes. The company is profittable and doing well even during these trying times. How am I, or any of the others in the Unions, a drain? Take away the wages and benefit perks and see how much turnover we have in this 24/7/365 chemical operation.

And believe it or not, most of my views are of the conservative sort. Union work doesn't decide your morals or values as many seem to believe.

[Grumpy]

MLTSPCS, it doesn’t sound like your Union is doing a very good job of keeping you from being abused by management. Either that or you are getting paid so well that you don’t want to change it. However, what you describe is one small aspect of why Unions were originally needed and why they were successful in protecting the worker from abuse and getting the worker a decent wage for the work being performed. Once collective bargaining became generally accepted, especially in the manufacturing industries, most of the abuses of the past were overcome and employees began getting a decent wage in a safe work place.

However, today’s Unions have the same problem that the Civil Rights Movement has—they already succeeded in their original goals and intent. Both the Unions (in their many and various forms and industries) and the Civil Rights Movement actually outlived their usefulness because of their success but the Civil Rights & Union bosses and leaders had become accustomed to their own high paying and cushy jobs and to prove their worth they have to keep demanding more and more benefits and/or rights for those they represent.

Ultimately many unionized industries became so labor expensive that the owners eventually started shipping the work outside the country and generally leaving Union shops only in places where they had not been particularly effective. Also, as more and more unionized industries closed shop, the Unions moved into government arenas, local state, and federal and some service industries where they could stay low key but still get paid for representing the “worker”. I won’t get into what the Civil Rights leaders have done to stay in power because that is a whole different thread which I don’t have time for.

Grumpy

[DJD]

Like stated earlier the Unions alone didn't cause the problems in this country but they do have a hand in it. A person can make claims of how good it is and of course they usually work for one. I have worked around them but never for one and I have problems with most I have been around.

Example#1- In some factories here in Lexington we were stolen from, wires cut and material damaged by the union men. This was not a one time instance either. Certain bad apples didn't like us in their building working since we are not union. No proof but only union men work there so the HR man paid us to redo all that work and paid our bills on material AGAIN! These union guys didn't care because they didn't see the direct cost of paying double for a job. All they saw was an opportunity to show us private contractors how they own the place...they were fools and don't represent all union men and women but this isn't the first time I have seen or heard of this attitude in Unions.

Example#2- Unions and their political pull has cost the state of Kentucky and many others millions of dollars with their prevailing wage push. This was done to level the playing field of bidding against us private contractors. Unions couldn't get the work because they have such a high financial burden and they charge more. So they attacked it from the political side and *poof* we have to start bidding using their fixed rates, it's in the bid documents. So now...we would have to pay some of our techs who usually make $15- $25 an hour.... from $35-$50 to do the same job because it was a gubment job, school or project using state/federal money. The project didn't get better material, constructed better or completed faster. Consider the man who was making $20 to pull wire and now is making $50 an hour. Do you think human nature takes over and he thinks Hmmmmm if I drag my feet and find reasons to prolong this job I'll make more money! That's what happens when this crap gets mandated. The projects just cost the tax payers ALOT more and you know what?? The Unions still can't get their fair share because they still charge to much and private companies are finding way to save money and bid cheaper. So that price fixing did nothing but waste our tax dollars.

Maybe if I worked for a Union I might have a different view but as rule I don't have many good thought about them. I picture the SCIU abusing folks in picket lines, I remember the picket lines getting violent because the unions tried to shut a business down by going on strike and the "scrubs" coming in trying to make a living and being abused.

I have friends who work for UPS, Trane, Electrical Contractors and in the Automotive trade that are union. They are great folks and I don't have a problem with them. I just don't like power the Unions have and how they can bully their way into getting things. I have not seen or heard a good thing from Unions in a long time. All I hear is how they will strike and shut a plant down because they might have to pay for more healthcare or not get their raise like they feel they deserve. Well welcome to the real world!