Time to ban em!

[Devils Horse]

Deven, again, you are confusing "choice" with "rights".

The rights you have are the rights our society says you have. At one time, Americans had the right to own slaves. We don't now, because "a group of people" decided it was morally wrong. At one time, Americans had the right to buy cocaine at the drug store. "A group of people" realized it was harmful and addictive and had it banned.

As to "betting your life" that those of us who call ourselves protectors of the unborn haven't helped prevent abortions, helped pay medical bills of pregnant women, or helped promote adoption, that would be a very, very unwise bet for you to make.

Beautifully stated, my hat is off to you sir.

[Deven Hall]

@jcb

I agree with you that things do change, but your comparing apples to oranges. Comparing pregnancy abortion to slavery and drugs is down right ignorant on your part. You said that americans had the right to own slaves, then why is our nations first constitution, The Articles of Confederation void of anything about slavery? Then when the constitution was written, it didn't even use the word "Slave" until the 13th amendment. Everyone knew owning another human being was just plain wrong from the get go.

As for drugs, they are still around and PERFECTLY legal, have you ever heard of a doctor? they give these things called prescriptions which allows you to get drugs. pain pills, uppers, downers, you name it.

[jcb]

@jcb

I agree with you that things do change, but your comparing apples to oranges. Comparing pregnancy abortion to slavery and drugs is down right ignorant on your part. You said that americans had the right to own slaves, then why is our nations first constitution, The Articles of Confederation void of anything about slavery? Then when the constitution was written, it didn't even use the word "Slave" until the 13th amendment. Everyone knew owning another human being was just plain wrong from the get go.

As for drugs, they are still around and PERFECTLY legal, have you ever heard of a doctor? they give these things called prescriptions which allows you to get drugs. pain pills, uppers, downers, you name it.

Hey Deven.

Americans owned slaves from the inception of our republic until the Emancipation Proclamation. If, as you say, they did not have the right to do because the Constitution didn't have the word "slavery", what law did they break?

Thanks for reminding me that "Everyone knew owning another human being was just plain wrong from the get go." Somewhere, in the dark recesses of my brain, I had this idea there was a gentlemen's disagreement about that issue at some point along the line. (Was there a fistfight or something, maybe? Pea shooters at ten paces during the 1860s? I know there was SOMETHING.)

As to your retort of "doctors give prescriptions" to my statement that "we no longer have the right to buy cocaine at the pharmacy", I have to admit, I have no response.

[kygorski]

I just read the last two posts, where abortion is justified by saying it's God's will, and we have a God-given right to perform them.

I believe God has consistently revealed himself to be a protector of the helpless. Life is a sacred gift from God. That's my rationale for believing abortion is wrong.

What's the rationale you two have for believing abortion is God's will and we have a God-given right to perform them?

Why didn't God stop aurora , colombine,sandy hook. All the tragedys. It happens because its his will. You cant believe other wise.What does God only get credit for the great things in life? this isn't blasphemy,or sacrelidge. Just ask a minister or priest why someone YOU loved died? Odds are thats what the answer will be.I've heard several times.

[jcb]

Why didn't God stop aurora , colombine,sandy hook. All the tragedys. It happens because its his will. You cant believe other wise.What does God only get credit for the great things in life? this isn't blasphemy,or sacrelidge. Just ask a minister or priest why someone YOU loved died? Odds are thats what the answer will be.I've heard several times.

That topic is worthy of another thread, but if you simply get the answer "it's God's will" from a minister when you ask why someone you loved died, it's time to find a different church.

[kygorski]

That topic is worthy of another thread, but if you simply get the answer "it's God's will" from a minister when you ask why someone you loved died, it's time to find a different church.

Do you ever say the lords prayer? Think about it.Most of the churces I've visited, and all that I attended said that.

[jcb]

Do you ever say the lords prayer? Think about it.Most of the churces I've visited, and all that I attended said that.

I'm not saying there's no such thing as God's will. I'm saying the existence of evil, and suffering, and death is a lot more complicated than simply saying "it's God's will."

Here's a good article I read recently on the topic.

[bassin_bug]

Too add, you said you rationalize by saying life is a gift from god. What about people that don't believe in god?

You don't really think that just because people don't believe in God it's going to change His judgment at the end of time, do you? That is totally irrational thinking. Greater is The Creator than the creation.

What if your parents had chosen to abort you and rob you of living in and enjoying this beautiful place called Earth? Just because your only crimes were an innocent piece of humanity with a heart full of love and a million sweet smiles to give?

[HURRICANEBOB]

[QUOTE=Devils Horse;505579]I'm pro-choice in cases of incest or rape, but using abortion as a means of birth control is just plain wrong. Problem is having one without the other is not really feasible. A very sticky issue.

QUOTE]

Given your thought, I think you can have it both ways. If I kill a person in cold blood, with no moral reason to do so, it's murder, I'm a criminal. But if I take the same gun, and shoot someone threatening me with a gun, it's self defense, and its authorized, and prudent.

I think it can be okay in some circumstances and wrong in others.

[HURRICANEBOB]

What if your parents had chosen to abort you and rob you of living in and enjoying this beautiful place called Earth?

Hmmmmmm?
1. I wouldn't have known they did, I'd have thought it was God's will. (If I had cognizant thought at that point)
2. I'd have missed 58 years of income taxes, personal property taxes, car repair bills, food expense, health expense, home ownership costs, insurance bills of all types, and utility costs.........I'D BE FRIGGIN RICH BY NOW!

I contend you can't "MISS" what you have never had.

[know1]

@jcb
Everyone knew owning another human being was just plain wrong from the get go.

We're getting off track, but this is a very incorrect statement. The were PLENTY of people who actually thought they were doing the slaves a favor.

[Devils Horse]

[QUOTE=HURRICANEBOB;505647]

I'm pro-choice in cases of incest or rape, but using abortion as a means of birth control is just plain wrong. Problem is having one without the other is not really feasible. A very sticky issue.

QUOTE]

Given your thought, I think you can have it both ways. If I kill a person in cold blood, with no moral reason to do so, it's murder, I'm a criminal. But if I take the same gun, and shoot someone threatening me with a gun, it's self defense, and its authorized, and prudent.

I think it can be okay in some circumstances and wrong in others.

The situation you describe is a lot more cut and dried, abortion is far more complex.

From a legal perspective I don't know when, if ever an unborn baby is recognized as a living person with the rights of a citizen. When a fetus is recognized as a human being is really the key issue.

It's pretty straightforward to write murder vs self defense laws, there are only 2 people involved. With abortions, the mother figures into the picture.