West Boggs

[idbefishing]

Unfortunately, a large part of the problem of Bogg's bass fishery heading downhill is due to the tourney anglers, but not because of all the pressure. As you suggest, a lake can take a pretty good amount of pressure, and if guys are releasing their fish back into the lake, the fishery holds up for quite a while. Geist is a perfect example of a fishery that receives tremendous tourney pressure but remains an excellent bass fishery. And yes, shad will eventually take their toll, but again its usually a much longer, drawn out process of decline.

Instead, what has happened is in large part due to the "arrogance" of some of the tourney bass clubs and anglers, for lack of a better word. It seems when West Boggs instituted its tourney permits and later, its $100 permit fee, a lot of clubs didn't like being "left out". So they started sneaking in and running what are considered "illegal" tournies. Several have been caught and labeled as such as Mike has documented in these forums before. So to get around the whole being caught aspect, they've improvised when it comes time to launch and weigh in. They'll slide in as individuals, won't hold any type of pre-tourney meeting or formal take-off, and when it is time for weigh-in they just slide out, load up and haul their bass off-site to be weighed else where. Of course, they don't bring them back into the Park because they'd have to pay again to enter or might get caught when they were seen putting their fish back into the lake. So instead they do things like take them home, stock their buddies pond, or release them into local waters where they are weighing them off-site.

Like most problems, this probably is occurring at a much higher rate than what we realize. Most serious bass anglers probably can name one person or club that has pulled this stunt down there, or at least considered doing it. How long can a bass fishery hold up when limits of good keepers are being removed on a regular basis? We are now starting to get the answer to that question as Steven S has already noted. Unfortunately while we all suffer in a sense due to losing a once great bass fishery, it is the local bass anglers who live and fish their regularly that will be hurt the most. Most of the clubs will just move on to the next lake on the schedule and eventually drop Boggs when the easy catching is gone.

Really a sad statement when you think about the whole situation. Seems we as bass anglers have become our own worst enemy. But if we can't police ourselves and hold our bassin' "buddies" accountable, what other outcome would you expect?

Man, that's some serious accusastions. I think you should have some concrete proofs before making such statements. Really, have anyone actually witness, video tape off-site weight-in?

[small boat basser]

Man, that's some serious accusastions. I think you should have some concrete proofs before making such statements. Really, have anyone actually witness, video tape off-site weight-in?

LOL - Do you think I host Candid Camera or something? I've got way more productive uses of my time. Beside, how much more proof is needed beyond knowing and talking to members of two separate bass clubs that have done the very things I mentioned? You want club names, dates fished, winning weights, where the fish were caught at and on what, and where the fish were ultimately taken after weighing? I've got that info too, but I'm not telling.

I simply wanted to make the point that beyond the reasons of normal harvest and shad invasions, I find it ironic that the group (bass club anglers) who are the biggest whiners and gripers of poor bass fisheries and W. Boggs regulations are the very ones contributing to the problem by their own actions. If you belong to a bass club start asking around and see if some of your members haven't heard or know of the same thing happening...it's not like it's some big secret that this is occuring. How many times has Mike come on the forum and mentioned catching another illegal tourney? That should be proof enough in and of itself.

[TR21Bassin]

Small Boat Basser,

I understand what your saying about the clubs having the "illegal tourneys", however if that was the biggest problem you would still catch a lot of small fish. I can't remember the last time I was at Boggs and caught more than 1-2 short fish. Usually everything you do catch is a keeper.

This tells me that a lot of small fish are being taken out as well. And small fish do not help the tourney anglers at all.

If you know of clubs having illegal tourneys than turn them in. Me personally I don't know of any having illegal tourneys at Boggs but I don't fish club tourneys. But if I did hear about it I would definitely not have a problem with turning them in to West Boggs Park.

Charlie

[small boat basser]

Small Boat Basser,

I understand what your saying about the clubs having the "illegal tourneys", however if that was the biggest problem you would still catch a lot of small fish. I can't remember the last time I was at Boggs and caught more than 1-2 short fish. Usually everything you do catch is a keeper.

This tells me that a lot of small fish are being taken out as well. And small fish do not help the tourney anglers at all.

If you know of clubs having illegal tourneys than turn them in. Me personally I don't know of any having illegal tourneys at Boggs but I don't fish club tourneys. But if I did hear about it I would definitely not have a problem with turning them in to West Boggs Park.

Charlie

I agree with what you're saying Charlie. I'm not saying they're (illegal tournies) the biggest problem, just that they are contributing to the decline. No small bass means no recruitment, and that is most likely due to the shad. Harvest by meat eaters is probably shaving off the 12"-16" fish population, though the surveys show that that has dropped by a bunch over the years. Tourney anglers are just removing some of the larger remaining bass. All of it works against the fishery to make it fail faster.

As for turning them in, it is one of those deals where I'm not hearing about it myself until well after the fact. You run into a buddy at the lake, start chit chatting about where they've been fishing tourneys this year and it comes up in conversation. Nothing you can do about it then. As idbefishing alluded to, you need to catch them in the act to enforce something like that, otherwise it is just one persons word against someone elses without definitive proof. Turning in a name(s) would do no good because they're illegal in the first place - not like they're on the current tourney list or applying for permits
for future tourneys. Much easier just to schedule the tourney whenever and keep runinng them this way.

I actually posted about this on the board a couple months ago in conversation. If Mike/W. Boggs chooses to follow up and try and crack down on this, that is their choice. Not sure it could even be legally stopped in the first place. I'm not looking to get anybody in trouble, merely pointing out that the bass anglers are quick to point fingers and complain, but it's some of their own that are making an existing problem worse.

[Stevens]

"This tells me that a lot of small fish are being taken out as well. And small fish do not help the tourney anglers at all."

Maybe im wrong, but i dont think they are surviving very well because they have no grass to hide in and they have to compete pretty heavily with shad and sunfish for forage. They definatly could be illegally harvested also but i think theres other problems too that are pilling up.

[Stevens]

haha you stole my thoughts small bass boater, but hey you said it better anyway

[cbass]

west boggs is and extremely productive lake dominated by gizzard shad. Bass in very productive shad lakes suffer from poor recruitment. That's why you don't catch small bass and the lake gets drained every 10 years. Too many shad equal poor bass recruitment, but great growth.

[idbefishing]

LOL - Do you think I host Candid Camera or something? I've got way more productive uses of my time. Beside, how much more proof is needed beyond knowing and talking to members of two separate bass clubs that have done the very things I mentioned? You want club names, dates fished, winning weights, where the fish were caught at and on what, and where the fish were ultimately taken after weighing? I've got that info too, but I'm not telling.

I simply wanted to make the point that beyond the reasons of normal harvest and shad invasions, I find it ironic that the group (bass club anglers) who are the biggest whiners and gripers of poor bass fisheries and W. Boggs regulations are the very ones contributing to the problem by their own actions. If you belong to a bass club start asking around and see if some of your members haven't heard or know of the same thing happening...it's not like it's some big secret that this is occuring. How many times has Mike come on the forum and mentioned catching another illegal tourney? That should be proof enough in and of itself.

Well, unless, 1: the person/s that you were talking to testify under oath that they actually witnessed or participated in those events, 2: someone is charged and convicted of the crime then it's concrete proofs other then that it's just gossips. That's it! Nothing more, nothing less. I have little doubt that these events actually happenned but I wouldn't be publicly pointing finger. By the way, since you have the knowledge of those supposedly incriminating facts and you're not telling. You could be charge with obstructing justice my friend. I do belong to a club and our members haven't heard or know of these things. We don't fish W. Boggs. Mike Axxom have posted on this board about illegal events that were caught but those were the ones that had the weight-in on-site if I remember correctly.

what has happened is in large part due to the "arrogance" of some of the tourney bass clubs and anglers. So they started sneaking in and running what are considered "illegal" tournies

I'm not saying they're (illegal tournies) the biggest problem, just that they are contributing to the decline.

Aren't you contradicting yourself by what you have been saying so far??

[small boat basser]

Well, unless, 1: the person/s that you were talking to testify under oath that they actually witnessed or participated in those events, 2: someone is charged and convicted of the crime then it's concrete proofs other then that it's just gossips. That's it! Nothing more, nothing less. I have little doubt that these events actually happenned but I wouldn't be publicly pointing finger. By the way, since you have the knowledge of those supposedly incriminating facts and you're not telling. You could be charge with obstructing justice my friend. I do belong to a club and our members haven't heard or know of these things. We don't fish W. Boggs. Mike Axxom have posted on this board about illegal events that were caught but those were the ones that had the weight-in on-site if I remember correctly.

Aren't you contradicting yourself by what you have been saying so far??

Good to know we have both an attorney and a semantics expert on the Indiana Board. That might come in handy some day. Gossip - LOL. Yea, I bet your bassing friends make up tourneys they never fished, patterns they never won with and wild stories about removing fish from lakes all the time just to impress you too. But I'm with you, I wouldn't believe them either! They're just friends, and friends lie about that stuff all the time.

Anyway, what's wrong with publicly pointing a finger (though it was an awefully wide finger) if what is stated is the truth? It's called accountability. And it's not obstructing justice if you've never been questioned by a legal authority on the matter, and/or you give them the details if you were actually asked. Neither of those events have happened.

Bottom line is any bass club removing fish from that lake just so they can hold a tourney is hurting the fishery to some degree. Is it worse than the shad problem, is it equal to the illegal harvest someone else mentioned, who knows. It certainly isn't helping though. Keep on defending them if you'd like. Lord knows, it's always the poor bass tourney anglers getting the shaft! They're the innocent ones.

[indiana boy]

The illegal tourn. have been going on for the last couple of years and yes most dont return there fish. I think instead of draining the lake every ten years cause of the shad and junk fish why dont they take that money and stock new bass every couple of years, it is odvious that this lake grows some monster bass and could be made into an incredable lunker lake if managed right!!

[MikeAxsom]

west boggs is and extremely productive lake dominated by gizzard shad. Bass in very productive shad lakes suffer from poor recruitment. That's why you don't catch small bass and the lake gets drained every 10 years. Too many shad equal poor bass recruitment, but great growth.

Cbass has this one correct guys. The decline in Largemouth recruitment was inevitable the moment Gizzard Shad were returned to the lake. Yes, there are still illegal tournaments going on, and yes that is a form of poaching that all sportsmen should refuse to tolerate. But West Boggs is productive enough to absorb a lot of harvest. What it can not tolerate is Gizzard Shad. We have been over and over this issue for the past 8 years. During that Time I have been taken to task repeatedly for stating what all managers believe; that this and other Gizzard Shad introductions are deliberate and are done by misinformed people who think it will make more forage for bass and better fishing. I have told this forum all this probably a hundred times in that 8 years.

We have been drawing the lake down each winter for those 8 years, as part of a study with DNR to see how effective induced winter kills might be in management of Gizzard Shad. That study is scheduled to run through 2010. After that I hope to be able to convince DNR to invest in another total renovation. The key to selling that idea is you folks. As long as it is apparent that the angling community refuses to accept what they are being told about the inappropriateness of having gizzard shad as forage in warm shallow water reservoirs in this region, the present thinking is that a renovation would be a waste of money. All it takes is one idiot with some bad information and a little ingenuity, and the whole problem will start all over again.

If serious anglers really want to do something to improve fishing in our state, jump in this on the right side and help us kill the shad=big bass myth. The money saved battling this stupidity is actually your own.

[bmck25]

Cbass has this one correct guys. The decline in Largemouth recruitment was inevitable the moment Gizzard Shad were returned to the lake. Yes, there are still illegal tournaments going on, and yes that is a form of poaching that all sportsmen should refuse to tolerate. But West Boggs is productive enough to absorb a lot of harvest. What it can not tolerate is Gizzard Shad. We have been over and over this issue for the past 8 years. During that Time I have been taken to task repeatedly for stating what all managers believe; that this and other Gizzard Shad introductions are deliberate and are done by misinformed people who think it will make more forage for bass and better fishing. I have told this forum all this probably a hundred times in that 8 years.

We have been drawing the lake down each winter for those 8 years, as part of a study with DNR to see how effective induced winter kills might be in management of Gizzard Shad. That study is scheduled to run through 2010. After that I hope to be able to convince DNR to invest in another total renovation. The key to selling that idea is you folks. As long as it is apparent that the angling community refuses to accept what they are being told about the inappropriateness of having gizzard shad as forage in warm shallow water reservoirs in this region, the present thinking is that a renovation would be a waste of money. All it takes is one idiot with some bad information and a little ingenuity, and the whole problem will start all over again.

If serious anglers really want to do something to improve fishing in our state, jump in this on the right side and help us kill the shad=big bass myth. The money saved battling this stupidity is actually your own.

Hi Mike,

Just a few questions here. By total renovation do you mean draw the lake down and treat the lake with retonone? Is it possible to treat the lake every 3-4yrs with retonone at a level that is leathal to shad but leaves other game fish unharmed? And would stocking the lake with a larger predator fish like musky help control the shad population? I believe this is the approach the DNR took with Waveland and it appears to be working thus far. Although the shad do seem to be more and more abundant each year.

Also, do you believe the shad were reintroduced by some "do-gooder" or do you think they were leftovers from the previous renovation?

BK McKenney

May the holes in your net be smaller than the fish in it.