Life after death, interesting read

[Tyme2fish]

Sounds like a plan. I bet there is some SERIOUS broadband in heaven.

Maybe, but don't text from there with your cell phone. I hear there's some serious roaming charges that apply.

[mperry]

It would be like God had an ego if he were just a human. This is what I call the Oprah error--assigning human attributes and thought patterns to the ultimate non-human, God.

Oprah said she abandoned "traditional Christianity" because of the Bible passages that refer to God as "a jealous God". Now, if the word "jealous" meant the same for God as it does for us, I would agree with her. But what God is saying in those passages is, “Listen, I love you. I created you to glorify me and for you to have abundant and everlasting life. But you can’t do either one of those things if I am thirteenth on your heart’s priority list. I love you, but if your free will leads you to dishonor me, there are going to be consequences.”

Who better to glorify? Who deserves it more? You and I shouldn't be glorified because we're not perfect. God is.

The suffering that exists is our own doing. Before Adam and Eve, there was none--not even death. Through them, suffering (and death) came into the world. If your son murdered someone and got put into prison, would that mean you didn't love him? No. Now say you sent your other willing son to serve out your murderous son's sentence in his place, wouldn't that show your love for the first son? Yes. God's compassion is not diminished because suffering exists, but his mercy is magnified because he offers a remedy for our sin penalty through Christ.

I agree with you 100% that we, as a human race, have often done the opposite of glorifying Him. But the flip side of the coin is the joy, and eternal life, that comes to those who give Him their lives.

What do you think about the timelines. According to the Bible the earth is around 6,000 years old but science says it is millions. How could this be possible? Also Noah's Ark carried 2 of each animal. Seems a little far fetched to me.

[Hlleonard]

What do you think about the timelines. According to the Bible the earth is around 6,000 years old but science says it is millions. How could this be possible? Also Noah's Ark carried 2 of each animal. Seems a little far fetched to me.

--
A lot of the stories contained in the bible are a stretch to accept, in the story of Noah there were supposedly 7 or maybe more of some of these animals, the details contained in the text of the Noah story make it impossible to accept rationally, in order to accept the bible as literally correct, you have to put aside common sense and believe what you are reading without question... I do believe the faith some folks have in christianity enriches their lives a great deal and that is a good thing but I also believe it is a long way from reality.

[DJD]

I am a Christian and a believer, and I struggled with some of the same questions that I have read on here. Several things happened in my life that made me understand that I don't have the answers and in fact will never get them. I decided to have faith in what I am being taught and reading as truth and moved on from there. I really do think I have felt God in my life during some terrible times of need.

Believing in God doesn't mean you will not encounter troubles or hardships. It also doesn't mean that all your prayers will be answered to your liking either. Being a Christian also doesn't mean your perfect.... in fact it means you agree you are not perfect and are seeking help.

Also, I don't believe we could be who we are without God. I don't believe we were a little piece of life millions of years ago that has evolved into what we are today. I don't believe we have evolved from monkeys either.

Other Gods out there? Sure people believe that but maybe many of us are actually seeing the same God but just a different culture and their/our interpretation is lost in translation.

To me in the end if you have chosen to not believe and are wrong...well that would be a terrible mistake. JMO

[RoadToad]

To me in the end if you have chosen to not believe and are wrong...well that would be a terrible mistake. JMO

The thing is, to me believing or not believing is not a choice. It seems to me that making a conscious "choice" to believe something is a form of self-deception. Either you believe something to be true, or you don't. And there are a lot of people who make that same argument, "You better believe in Christianity, because what if you're wrong?" Sorry folks, but I will not be scared into believing. And when I see people putting forth that argument, I tend to think they must harbor doubts themselves, they're just afraid to admit it. That's JMO, and I mean no offense.

[DJD]

The thing is, to me believing or not believing is not a choice. It seems to me that making a conscious "choice" to believe something is a form of self-deception. Either you believe something to be true, or you don't. And there are a lot of people who make that same argument, "You better believe in Christianity, because what if you're wrong?" Sorry folks, but I will not be scared into believing. And when I see people putting forth that argument, I tend to think they must harbor doubts themselves, they're just afraid to admit it. That's JMO, and I mean no offense.

None taken here..... but that was one of my thoughts when I was searching. No guilt was laid upon me by anyone just the readings of the bible.
One of the things that bothered me most about Christians was that the few that I knew through my life were awful people. They would lie cheat and steal and then go to church on Sunday to be seen as something they are not. I have since figured out that's not my problem. It's a choice to have a relationship with God that folks make on their own and in their own time.

[mperry]

Some big questions there.


It all starts with one thing: we were created to glorify Him. That's why we are on Earth. We do that most when we believe.

The scenario you describe - with a visible, present God, and no hell - is exactly what God's initial creation was. But Adam and Eve fell victim to pride and put an end to all that. That is what brought pain and death into the world. God could have created mind-numbed humans with no free will that would have obeyed him perfectly, but there's no glory in that for Him and no joy in that for us.

As to things "not adding up", you have to ask, "by what standard?" Proverbs says "there is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end is the way of death." If you come from the place, which I do, which says that the human race has gotten exactly what we deserve, then what becomes obvious to you is not that God would send anyone to hell, but that He would allow anyone in heaven.

An all Love all forgiving God brought pain and death? It just seems to go against everything that He supposedly stands for. I just want to say also that I really enjoy these types of discussions and I hope it stays civil. I would never try to sway someone one way or the other.
Back on topic. Like I said in my first post I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but I'd also say that I am about 50/50 on it. I also hope that this would not keep me out of Heaven because if it does then I probably will never see it. God gave free will and I would hope that He would be tolerant of that. I just think with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them. I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness. I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am.

[jcb]

An all Love all forgiving God brought pain and death? It just seems to go against everything that He supposedly stands for. I just want to say also that I really enjoy these types of discussions and I hope it stays civil. I would never try to sway someone one way or the other.
Back on topic. Like I said in my first post I don't want to say that I am a non beleiver but I'd also say that I am about 50/50 on it. I also hope that this would not keep me out of Heaven because if it does then I probably will never see it. God gave free will and I would hope that He would be tolerant of that. I just think with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them. I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness. I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am.

To call God "all forgiving and all loving" *alone* ignores the fact that he is also holy and righteous, meaning he cannot have anything to do with sin. He can't ignore it, or He wouldn't be God.

1. God is holy and righteous = he must punish sin
2. God is loving = he sent Jesus to become that sin and bear the punishment for all of us

As to "with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them" - the Bible is clear that no one is without sin. No where in Scripture will you find the idea that, when we're judged, God places our good stuff we did on one side of a balance beam and the bad stuff we did on the other side of the balance beam, and if there's more good than bad, we go to Heaven. That's just not a Christian belief.

What God does measure is faith. In Him and in Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. You're exactly right when you say "I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness." It's not a simple thing. And I believe one of the biggest myths out there is the belief that if you say this certain prayer, and really mean it, you're saved. God does the saving and He chooses how and when.

As to your last statement - "I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am" - again, this is a modern, societal belief not anything scriptural or anything Christ would have said. God *can't* accept you as you are because you're a sinner - as I am. It is only through accepting Christ that we become God's children.

Like you, I like this type of discussion and it's nice to see it mostly civil.

[mperry]

--
A lot of the stories contained in the bible are a stretch to accept, in the story of Noah there were supposedly 7 or maybe more of some of these animals, the details contained in the text of the Noah story make it impossible to accept rationally, in order to accept the bible as literally correct, you have to put aside common sense and believe what you are reading without question... I do believe the faith some folks have in christianity enriches their lives a great deal and that is a good thing but I also believe it is a long way from reality.

If I am not correct please correct me. The Bible was written by men but supposedly it is Gods words. Who's to say its not like any other story that gets told by men or women. A cut finger will turn into an amputation the more times it gets told.

[mperry]

To call God "all forgiving and all loving" *alone* ignores the fact that he is also holy and righteous, meaning he cannot have anything to do with sin. He can't ignore it, or He wouldn't be God.

1. God is holy and righteous = he must punish sin
2. God is loving = he sent Jesus to become that sin and bear the punishment for all of us

As to "with all the evil people in the world that I would not be grouped in with them" - the Bible is clear that no one is without sin. No where in Scripture will you find the idea that, when we're judged, God places our good stuff we did on one side of a balance beam and the bad stuff we did on the other side of the balance beam, and if there's more good than bad, we go to Heaven. That's just not a Christian belief.

What God does measure is faith. In Him and in Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. You're exactly right when you say "I also don't beleive that it is as simple as asking for forgiveness." It's not a simple thing. And I believe one of the biggest myths out there is the belief that if you say this certain prayer, and really mean it, you're saved. God does the saving and He chooses how and when.

As to your last statement - "I am not asking God to forgive me only to accept me as I am" - again, this is a modern, societal belief not anything scriptural or anything Christ would have said. God *can't* accept you as you are because you're a sinner - as I am. It is only through accepting Christ that we become God's children.

Like you, I like this type of discussion and it's nice to see it mostly civil.

So lets say I know I'm going to die. Can I ask for forgiveness on my deathbed and be accepted into Heaven. Personally I would hope thats not the case. I realize that in the eyes of God I am a sinner. Again I would rather be judged on how I have lived my life. I don't think that anyone is perfect and I also dont think that just asking for God to forgive is enough. And according to what you are saying he sent Jesus here to take the punishment for us. If so then why should I worry about anything? Not trying to argue but again this goes against what it being said supposedly by God.

[jcb]

So lets say I know I'm going to die. Can I ask for forgiveness on my deathbed and be accepted into Heaven. Personally I would hope thats not the case.

Why not?

And according to what you are saying he sent Jesus here to take the punishment for us. If so then why should I worry about anything? Not trying to argue but again this goes against what it being said supposedly by God.

The idea that Jesus bore our punishment is called the doctrine of subsitutionary atonement and it's at the core of Christian belief. How do you think the idea that Jesus bore our punishment goes against "what is being said supposedly by God"?

As to 'why should I worry about anything', I believe that the worry, if you want to call it that, is for those who have not asked forgiveness for sin, accepted the free gift of Christ's sacrifice, and turned away from those sins.

[mperry]

Why not?



The idea that Jesus bore our punishment is called the doctrine of subsitutionary atonement and it's at the core of Christian belief. How do you think the idea that Jesus bore our punishment goes against "what is being said supposedly by God"?

As to 'why should I worry about anything', I believe that the worry, if you want to call it that, is for those who have not asked forgiveness for sin, accepted the free gift of Christ's sacrifice, and turned away from those sins.

So if I murder someone then I ask forgiveness on my deathbed then that is good enough? I can be the most evil person around but as long as before I die I ask for forgiveness then I'm good to go? I can't by that.


Turning away from sin though is not that easy is it? If we are all sinners wont be sinners for as long as we are on this earth?