A question of values.......

[Tim_T]

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I was not taken to church by my parents either but did go to sunday school with my brother who was 2 years older than me for a few years so I'm not the person Mr. Fisher is looking for... I do however believe we all have an inherent set of scruples and a conscience that guides us to what we think is right or wrong regardless of any religious background we might or might not have... These values seem to vary widely from person to person as we do seem to have individuals who seemingly have no conscience... Most folks think it is wrong to kill another person but then keep firearms for that very reason... "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't seem to leave room for killing folks no matter what the reason... I don't believe a person needs religion in his life to have a decent set of morals and the ability to know right from wrong in most cases.

Really? I don't know a single person who keeps a gun to kill somebody. Who are these people and where do they live?

[Hlleonard]

Really? I don't know a single person who keeps a gun to kill somebody. Who are these people and where do they live?

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You don't know anybody who keeps a firearm for personal protection?

[Tim_T]

Don't know anyone who bought one with the purpose of killing someone. Self protection is one thing, but I don't know anyone who bought a gun for the purpose of killing someone.

So do you believe that you should not protect yourself?

[Hlleonard]

Don't know anyone who bought one with the purpose of killing someone. Self protection is one thing, but I don't know anyone who bought a gun for the purpose of killing someone.

So do you believe that you should not protect yourself?

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Oh yes I most certainly do believe in protecting yourself but the sole purpose of a firearm for self protection is a willingness to point it at someone and being willing to pull the trigger if necessary and that could very well result in killing that person... I just have a problem understanding folks who are on the religious right and arguing morals based on the content of the bible can justify killing a person for any reason when the ten commandants seem to be the guidelines for their beliefs.

[bassin_bug]

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Oh yes I most certainly do believe in protecting yourself but the sole purpose of a firearm for self protection is a willingness to point it at someone and being willing to pull the trigger if necessary and that could very well result in killing that person... I just have a problem understanding folks who are on the religious right and arguing morals based on the content of the bible can justify killing a person for any reason when the ten commandants seem to be the guidelines for their beliefs.

I don't know of anyone who has a firearm, whether for self-protection or not, that is going to stand in front of someone pointing a gun at their head and not pull the trigger on their own gun. That is just lame thinking; it's kill or be killed. I have taken, and passed the state firearms test and have a permit to carry a loaded handgun/pistol. It is a reciprocal permit which means my permit is honored in at least 12 states. My job is to KNOW what the rules are in each state for my permit. If one state is open carry and another is concealed carry I have to follow that rule. When it comes to me having to make a choice in order to protect my life, it's easy, I WILL kill and let God sort it out later.

At the risk of kicking up a firestorm from some who may not have spent much time reading the Bible or studying Biblical history, still I am obligated to point out some things you may have overlooked.

You hang your statement on one of The Ten Commandments but tell me why you didn't mention Moses killing one of the Egyptians and burying him in the sand (Exodus 2:11-12). Later God gave Moses The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17). Read what God Himself said to Moses just before he gave the Commandments regarding the Israelites touching the Mount. "Whosoever touches the Mount shall be surely put to death. If a hand touches it he shall surely be stoned, or shot through whether it be beast or man, it shall not live" (Exodus 19:12-13). Before Jesus died on the cross, man was very limited as to how he could approach God; that's why His order was given. Since the Cross, "whosoever will may come." When man was limited in his approach to God, only the priest could go into the Holy of Holies. If the priest was unclean when he entered the Holy of Holies, God killed him. That doesn't make God a murderer; he had laws that must be obeyed or the people suffered the consequences. While dead is still dead, there is a difference between killing and murder. That's why I said, regarding self-protection, it's kill or be killed. One person would kill the other would murder.

[Hlleonard]

I don't know of anyone who has a firearm, whether for self-protection or not, that is going to stand in front of someone pointing a gun at their head and not pull the trigger on their own gun. That is just lame thinking; it's kill or be killed. I have taken, and passed the state firearms test and have a permit to carry a loaded handgun/pistol. It is a reciprocal permit which means my permit is honored in at least 12 states. My job is to KNOW what the rules are in each state for my permit. If one state is open carry and another is concealed carry I have to follow that rule. When it comes to me having to make a choice in order to protect my life, it's easy, I WILL kill and let God sort it out later.

At the risk of kicking up a firestorm from some who may not have spent much time reading the Bible or studying Biblical history, still I am obligated to point out some things you may have overlooked.

You hang your statement on one of The Ten Commandments but tell me why you didn't mention Moses killing one of the Egyptians and burying him in the sand (Exodus 2:11-12). Later God gave Moses The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17). Read what God Himself said to Moses just before he gave the Commandments regarding the Israelites touching the Mount. "Whosoever touches the Mount shall be surely put to death. If a hand touches it he shall surely be stoned, or shot through whether it be beast or man, it shall not live" (Exodus 19:12-13). Before Jesus died on the cross, man was very limited as to how he could approach God; that's why His order was given. Since the Cross, "whosoever will may come." When man was limited in his approach to God, only the priest could go into the Holy of Holies. If the priest was unclean when he entered the Holy of Holies, God killed him. That doesn't make God a murderer; he had laws that must be obeyed or the people suffered the consequences. While dead is still dead, there is a difference between killing and murder. That's why I said, regarding self-protection, it's kill or be killed. One person would kill the other would murder.

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I would do the very same thing you would do to protect myself and family but I'm not a believer in a higher power in control of all we see and hear... The bible seemingly is filled with these kinds of contradictions and a person can find justification for almost anything he/she chooses to do by looking elsewhere in the scriptures... Most christians will present you with the ten commandants when that is what he/she needs to backup any argument they might be trying to make... "Thou shalt not kill" is the only wording I have ever seen for that commandant and that doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room... Folks who can justify breaking that commandant and still be able to hold on to their beliefs are speaking out of both sides of their mouth... I'm not sure how most folks would define being hypocritical but it seems to me that would fit the description... Not meaning to offend you or anyone else in that statement but folks on the far right seem to want it both ways...'" Thou shalt not kill unless (insert justification here)" seems to be the way these folks want it.

[RoadToad]

"Thou shalt not kill" is the only wording I have ever seen for that commandant and that doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room...

That's because you've only read the King James Version, where the Hebrew word "ratsach" was translated as "kill." In other versions, including the New King James Version, it is translated as "murder," which represents the true meaning of the Hebrew text. In that version, the sixth commandment is, "Thou Shalt Not Murder."

[Hlleonard]

That's because you've only read the King James Version, where the Hebrew word "ratsach" was translated as "kill." In other versions, including the New King James Version, it is translated as "murder," which represents the true meaning of the Hebrew text. In that version, the sixth commandment is, "Thou Shalt Not Murder."

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you are correct, I have never read that... Which version of the king James bible is that written?... There are several versions of the same bible I believe... Most folks including christians will quote that as "Thou shall not kill".

[RoadToad]

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you are correct, I have never read that... Which version of the king James bible is that written?... There are several versions of the same bible I believe... Most folks including christians will quote that as "Thou shall not kill".

It's called the "New King James Version." And yes, most people quote it that way, because the King James has for a long time been the only version most people ever saw. But you have to remember that the Bible was not originally written in English; in fact English did not exist back in the first century. Exodus was originally written in Hebrew. Also the meanings of both Hebrew and English words can change over time, so it can be difficult to decipher exactly what was meant at the time of writing. But today the most widely accepted translation of the sixth commandment as it was written in Hebrew is, "Thou shalt not murder."

[Hlleonard]

It's called the "New King James Version." And yes, most people quote it that way, because the King James has for a long time been the only version most people ever saw. But you have to remember that the Bible was not originally written in English; in fact English did not exist back in the first century. Exodus was originally written in Hebrew. Also the meanings of both Hebrew and English words can change over time, so it can be difficult to decipher exactly what was meant at the time of writing. But today the most widely accepted translation of the sixth commandment as it was written in Hebrew is, "Thou shalt not murder."

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That is the first time I have read that containing that wording... That would seem to put a different light on it.

[RoadToad]

I should have said the most widely accepted by biblical scholars, because it's true that most of the public would still quote it as "Thou shalt not kill."

[HURRICANEBOB]

Really? I don't know a single person who keeps a gun to kill somebody. Who are these people and where do they live?

Detroit
Harlem
And the West End of Louisville