The energy non crisis

[Moose1am]

""This should not be a Dem Vs Rep thing. It should be a human struggle to survive issue. It should be a quality of living thing. It should be an American Thing.""

I agree 100%! We will never get where we need to be because of that problem. I'm just an average tax paying guy and the Democrats get me flustered with their cheap shots about the Republicans and I'm vary aware it works both ways. Neither party is 100% right but as a Country we are split due to unsavory political and business practices.

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DJD:
You are so correct and that's my point. We should follow the advice of the real scientist not the politicians.

The sad part is that the politicians now control the scientist and tell them what to say and what not to say. And they rewrite the scientific reports to change their conclusions.

They don't give out Nobel Peace Prize to people who lying. The honor is reserved for the best and brightest people. Al Gore is only telling us what the real scientist are telling us about this planet. There is no disinformation coming from Al. I wish that I could say that about the GOP side of this equation.

All one has to really think about to figure out who's the biased folk is to follow the money. Big Oil has billions invested in keeping our economy using huge quantities of OIL. They answer to their stock holders and that's all. Big Oil is not required to keep America Safe. They are a fascist company who's only responsibility it to their stock holders and all they want is a dividend check. The stock owners are not going to lose money and help this country ween itself on a cash cow. So they deny that global warming is happening. Even though Bush and McCain have publically stated on TV that Global Warming is real and it's happening now. The former CIA director is driving a hybrid car today. He too says that Global Warming is real and that the effects of the melting ice up north is hurting our own National Security. And the former CIA guys know all about our National Defense and were we are vulnerable. This summer there will be Chinese Nuclear Submarines up North in the Arctic Sea cruising under the open oceans just waiting for the launch orders. And there will be Russian Nuclear Subs up there too. They can get much closer to our shores because the ice is melting up there. They can even get more surface ships up there now. The polar bears are not the only ones in danger of the melting ice.

[jcb]

Moose:

"You are trying to confuse the facts again. I said that Global Warming Was Real not that it was caused by man. Two very different things."

Gotcha--so global warming is NOT caused by man. Glad we cleared that up.

[Moose1am]

Gotcha????? Are you serious? You got NOTHING!!!!!


You seemed to have finally said that Global Warming is real.

Is that your "FINAL ANSWER" or are you going to "FLIP FLOP" on me again?

All the real xperts at NASA and NOAA are in agreement. All the unbiased and truthful climate X perts understand that mankind is making our earth warmer by our human activities.

My text books from the late 1970's told me that.. And it's even more true today.

The evidence when looked at scientifically not politically is undisputable.

It's crystal clear that the earth is warming up.

[jcb]

"You seemed to have finally said that Global Warming is real."

Moose, what we have been discussing is causation, not existence. I challenge you to show me any instance in this thread where I said global warming wasn't real. Are you getting your discussion partners confused?

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"All the real xperts at NASA and NOAA are in agreement. All the unbiased and truthful climate X perts understand that mankind is making our earth warmer by our human activities."

So, in post #9 when you said "I said that Global Warming Was Real not that it was caused by man. Two very different things", you meant "Global warming is caused by man." Thanks for clearing that up.

[Moose1am]

Yes. Sorry! I thought you were someone else.

Now getting back to causation only!

I think that mankinds activities have had a significant effect on the warming of the earth, Global Warming.

We have been increasing the amount of fossil fuels burned. The amount of CO2 gas in the atmosphere has increased along with the temperature.

And the amount of logging around the equatorial zones have been on the increase. If you could see the pictures of some areas of South America you will noticed large tracts of land where the trees have been cut down and BURNED. This burning is releasing all the carbon from those huge rain forest trees. And cutting down the rain forest which helped to absorb lots of CO2 gas is not helping. So that is a double edged sword that helps to increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

What really worried me the most in the melting of those glaciers in the antiartic. Right now the sea ice is melting and that's not going to make the ocean levels rise. The ice displaces as much water as it would if it were just water. But when the ice on the continents starts to melt and slide into the Artic Ocean it will cause sea levels to rise. That's new water that's being added to the worlds oceans that was once a solid and on the land.

Global Warming was not my major issue. What I hate to see is the disinformaton that OTHERS, not you, have been putting on the net.

Sorry I mistook you for the others.

"You seemed to have finally said that Global Warming is real."

Moose, what we have been discussing is causation, not existence. I challenge you to show me any instance in this thread where I said global warming wasn't real. Are you getting your discussion partners confused?

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"All the real xperts at NASA and NOAA are in agreement. All the unbiased and truthful climate X perts understand that mankind is making our earth warmer by our human activities."

So, in post #9 when you said "I said that Global Warming Was Real not that it was caused by man. Two very different things", you meant "Global warming is caused by man." Thanks for clearing that up.

[Moose1am]

Gumby I am also independent in my thinking. But that does not mean that I can't see the truth. I learned about the Green House effect years ago from the educators at Purdue University. I learned it from my Geology Professors. I learned the same thing from Professors at the University of Southern Indiana.

I don't say that everyone that disagrees with me on everything is spreading hogwash. Some of those people are smart and know what they are talking about at times. But in this case that's not you!

Just because I say you and those that disclaim "global Warming" are spreading hogwash doesn't mean that I do that with anyone that disagrees with me on anything else.

I am independent enough to see the difference.

I knew about Global Warming and the effects of CO2 in the Atmosphere long before Al Gore started his campaign to warm people about the dangers of burning all these fossil fuels in record amounts.

The main reason I joined in this discussion was to set the facts straight on global warming with not just you but anyone who reads some of your posts.

There seems to be a few camps out there that enjoy spreading misinformation. Normally I just ignore them and go one. But this time on this issue I figured I would put my two cents in. Not that you will change your way of thinking, but that others can see what you are saying and discount it as hogwash.

You see independents are capable fo seeing the BS for what it is.

Gumby: I have news for you sir... You are not that independent in your thinking on global warming. If you really were independent you would be able to see the other side and know what the truth is.

And please listen to me really close here. Ask yourself what's making the Ice Caps Melt at this time in the earths history?

You are aware that the polar ice caps and the glaciers are melting and retreating in many parts of the globe?

All I am really trying to say to you is this. Use your eyes and look around at the melting ice up at the North Pole and down at the South Pole and on the mountain tops. Ice that have been accumulating up on the Mountain tops for hundreds of years is suddenly melting and exposing the sides of mountains that have not be visible for many hundreds of years. If you deny this then you can't be an independent thinking man.

This one issue does not make one a democrat nor a republican. There are many republicans that know that global warming is happening right now.

And I would bet that there are democrats that think it's not happening.

Like someone in some of these threads said: This really should not be politicized. The facts should be based on facts and evidence. Not what some politicians thinks they should be.

Having worked for government as a scientist that advised the politicians on environmental facts I know what can happen when politics enters into the discussions.

I am going to go back to talking fishing now. It's less frustrating and take up much less of my time and energy.

Have a good day!

Moose, just for your information I AM NOT A REPUBLICIN -- I am an INDEPENDENT in my politics and, unlike you, in my THINKING!! Just becuase someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that they are spreading HOWSWASH nor DISINFORMATION. Again for your information, there are millions of people that disagree with you AND AL GORE.

Grumpy

[stratosjoe]

**** Moose , you got me so depressed I am going to crawl up in a box of Ben and Jerry's and eat my way out. You may or may not be right but unless your last name is Rothchild your elevated blood pressure is only bad for you. There is far more important things for the nation to be concerned about like who will be the next dancer given the boot or who gets kicked off some island in the carribbean. Those are the important things to get excited about, oh and don't forget about Brittany.

[know1]

What the heck, I'll throw in my .02...

I'm not sure if global warming is real or not, but I'm pretty sure the climate has made some pretty big changes in the past so it's conceivable. The part that cannot be proven to me is that man is having a significant impact on it or that man can do anything to change it significantly.

Now that does not mean I'm in favor of polluting the environment or abusing it negligently, but it also means that I'm pretty sure if man were around to tax the most advanced countries at the time of the ice age to try and prevent that from happening, it would have still occurred.

Also, I do not believe that scientists have relevant statistical samples gathered from the last 100 years or so (the time when we could do any appreciable measuring of climate and weather) to make very solid hypotheses about what is occurring or what will occur. Please don't bring up core sample of ice and tell me that those can be compared with readings we do now.

[Moose1am]

Why are you willing to discount the core samples? They are a legitimate way of finding out how much CO2 gas was in the atmosphere in the past.

Seriously the ice back then trapped the air and the amount of CO2 in that air can be measured today.

You seem pretty intelligent as you used terms like Significant. I assume you are aware of Confidence levels at the 95% area of the bell curve and also may understand how to test difference in populations. You also may be aware of Chi Square Testing procedures.

Infrared Light can be used to measure how much CO is in the air. I use that methodology to test the air for Carbon Monoxide in the Evansville, IN area.

Likewise there are methodologies that are capable of measuring how much CO 2 is in an air sample.

I don't know if you have taken any Geology or not, but geologists use core sample of the earth to determine how old the various layers of the rocks are. Likewise they can take core samples of the old ice and determine the age of the various layers of ice. And they can also measure how much CO2 is found in each different layers. This means that they can go back in time and figure out how much CO2 is in the various ice layers. That in terms relates to how much CO2 was in the earths atmosphere at those times.

Do you dispute these facts about measuring the ice layers and the amount of CO2 in them and therefore the past amount of CO2 in the Earths atmosphere?

I am just curious as to what you don't believe?

Are you familiar with the Bureau of National Standards or ASTM methods? I have had to calibrate Class A thermometers and certify them as traceable to a NBS certified thermometer. That's pretty easy to do. I even purchased thermometer that came with this certification to the NBS. I think they changed the name to some thing else about 15 years ago. And I can't recall the new name but the agency still performs the same functions.

American Standards Testing Materials ASTM have published many books that describe how these tests are performed. They are used all over the USA to conduct business. So anyone that can read the ASTM books can figure out how to calibrate a thermometer. And most people can read a thermometer easily. I could probably train a kid to take temperature readings and to write them down in a bound log book with numbered pages.

So please don't tell me that we can't record the air or water temperature back 100 years ago. Some of the best minds that have ever been born were around long before 100 years ago. Copernicus, Newton just to name two.

Geologists have been around for hundreds of years and many scientific disciplines have been taking temperature readings for many years now.

But for the sake of argument lets just limit the discussion to the last 30 years. In fact 30 years ago I was taking water samples and measuring the Ph of the rain water. And I was using a Ph Meter that was purchased from Fisher Scientific. It had a automatic temperature compensating probe built into the pH probe and meter.

Are you aware of how a thermocouple works? Do you really thing that taking a air temperature reading is that hard. In fact taking temperature reading is probably the most basic scientific test that can be done.

So please don't tell me that people can't measure the air temperature in the USA, or in Alaska or in South Africa. Thermometer were designed long before you and I were even born and they have not really changed that much. They were using liquids that expand and contract volume with changing temperature ever since they were invented.

While they may have been a few errors in reading these over the years they were very few and far between. These temperatures can be combined and easily averaged. And it's easy to take temperature readings throughout the various parts of the globe and analysis and interrupt them.

Taking air temperatures is pretty **** hard to screw up!

And last question. How do you explain the vanished Glaciers?

Ice won't melt unless it gets above 32 deg F or Zero deg C. or 273 deg Kelvin longer than it stays below that temperature. So if the average air temperature are over 32 deg F the ice melts. If the average temperatures are below 32 deg the F freezes and builds back up. Over the last 30 years all the ice has been doing more melting than freezing. That's perfectly clear.


In fact the way that scientist can test a thermometer and determine if it's working property is to put it in ice water and see if it reads 32 deg F and then put it in boiling water and see if it reads 212 deg F. For you metric guys that zero deg C and 100 deg C respectively.

Now I think that mankind has had a significant impact on the amount of CO2 in our atmosphere.

This morning I read on MSNBC web site that the oceans are turning more Acidic. This is directly due to the increase in CO2 in the air. You are most likely aware of the laws of Partial Pressure? You know the physic laws that states that the higher the partial pressure of a gas the more the gas will go into solution in a liquid.

Well it just so happened that we can measure the pH of the sea water and the scientist are discovering that the ocean coastal waters off the USA West Coast are getting more acidic. And acidic water dissolved calcium carbonate into solution. Take some acid and pour it over some limestone and watch the reaction. This is going on right now. Sea critters who's shells are made out of calcium are having their shells dissolved due to the lower pH of the ocean waters. That's something new that I just read this morning.

I have performed tests on water samples that were highly basic. Take a test sample of effluent that has a pH of 10.0 and add some CO2 into the solution quickly and then watch the pH of that solution drop like a rock below 7.0. In fact you can take a straw and blow though the straw and put your breath into the solution and make it's pH drop down to 5.0 in less than 5 seconds.

That's because humans exhale CO2 into the air. Might add that the 7 billion humans breathing ever few seconds also contributes to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. We and all the other animals were in balance with the plants for hundreds of years. Now we are out of balance with the plants as the amount of CO2 in the air is increasing.

You surely won't debate the fact that man is digging up and burning much more fossil fuels that we ever did 100 year ago. Surley you will admit to that!

Would you also deni that buring these fossil fuels is putting more CO2 into the atmosphere? Surely you will admit that is a fact!

What the heck, I'll throw in my .02...

I'm not sure if global warming is real or not, but I'm pretty sure the climate has made some pretty big changes in the past so it's conceivable. The part that cannot be proven to me is that man is having a significant impact on it or that man can do anything to change it significantly.

Now that does not mean I'm in favor of polluting the environment or abusing it negligently, but it also means that I'm pretty sure if man were around to tax the most advanced countries at the time of the ice age to try and prevent that from happening, it would have still occurred.

Also, I do not believe that scientists have relevant statistical samples gathered from the last 100 years or so (the time when we could do any appreciable measuring of climate and weather) to make very solid hypotheses about what is occurring or what will occur. Please don't bring up core sample of ice and tell me that those can be compared with readings we do now.